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Thread: Acceptance of AB/DL and reconciling with masculinity

  1. #1

    Default Acceptance of AB/DL and reconciling with masculinity

    Hi there,

    All my life I've struggled with true acceptance of my AB / Sissy lifestyle side. I've been through periods where I believe I truly accept it, believe it will never go away and have to incorporate it into my life. Twice however, I've tried to extinguish it by throwing away all my paraphernalia only to re-buy it all some months later.

    This is going to go a little deep but I will keep it brief. My mother is anorexic and has been since her teens. The effects weren't really noticeable until her 30's and by her 40's she was made redundant from her job as a district nurse, likely too much of a liability. She is domineering, controlling, manipulative, tries to micro-manage everything and everyone around her, is co-dependent, plays the martyr, invaded my privacy, shamed me, hit me as a child, is highly critical, angry, intolerant. As you may know anorexia is really 100% a mental rather than a physiological eating problem. Unfortunately that has impacted me severely in many ways.

    I see my main problems as not being able to stand up properly for myself, unable to express anger healthily and internalise it instead, leading to rage. My esteem is poor and I don't believe in my abilities, even though I know how intelligent I am and how erudite I am in writing. I've been on Citalopram for the best part of 13 years and have a history of poly-drug use from MDMA, cannabis, LSD, alcohol, cigarettes, benzo addiction and anabolic steroid use. Just recently I relapsed on Xanax but have quickly quit again. I don't take any of my old recreational drugs any more but anabolic steroid use is my main vice.

    I struggle with intimacy and have avoided intimate romantic relationships all my life. I could go on about the variety of problems I have but I did say I'd keep this brief. My most useful self-help tools are pro-masculinity books like No More Mr Nice Guy, Hold on to your N.U.T.S and Carlos Xuma's Alpha Masculinity guide. They are about being the best man you can be; masculine, able to set boundaries, show and demand respect, be empathic, help and support those in need (whilst making your own needs the priority), show honour, courage, strength, compassion, being courteous, chivalrous, be a leader, manage our egos and emotions. It's all good healthy stuff.

    However, I wonder whether my little 2 year old girl, shy, gentle, vulnerable little lamb who needs reassurance and kindness, unconditional love and nurturing from mummy is holding me back from the masculine work. My little baby side, you could say, is the antithesis to this powerful masculine figure. I just can't seem to stop my little girl from entering whenever i see an attractive woman. I don't think of sex or mutual age-appropriate relationship; I want her to cuddle me and soothe me off to sleep.

    Phew. I'm not sure where to go from here. I've had 1.5 years of CBT and 1.5 years of psychodynamic therapy and have more coming up in January. Thanks for reading.

    BlankieLover

  2. #2

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    This is something that comes up from time to time and I don't have an easy answer for anyone but myself. While being an AB is a pretty big deviation from traditional masculine expectations and I think most would see DLs deviant in that fashion to a lesser extent, I don't see how it matters. I am a man who is an ABDL. I could like dresses or martial arts but those things in and of themselves make me no more or less of a man. As I have matured, I have gotten more comfortable with numerous aspects of myself that both fit and deviate from expected roles. Sometimes they represent something larger to me and inform my identity. In other cases, they are just part of the stew. ABDL is neither here nor there for me.

  3. #3

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    Do you think it's possible that your rigid views on gender is the reason for a mental split between a super masculine role and a overly feminine role you now have? They say that what you resist persists. So resisting your feminine side is probably not the best way to go about it. It's hard to tell someone to just go and rethink their entire view on gender. I won't say that. But I find it strange that books have advice on how to be a good man, specifically, and I wonder how that would differ from being a good woman? Have you considered the strange nature of such a book in the first place? Shouldn't they really be just books on how to be a good person?

    The whole idea of gender roles and the idea that men specifically can't do anything feminine isn't an idea that you came up with, of course. It's just messages from society and culture ingrained in your head. Maybe just being aware that it's nothing but societal standards, that change all the time, would be enough to help you become more comfortable with all aspects of your personality, whether they be masculine or feminine ones. But nonetheless I wish you the best luck on your journey in self discovery. I don't think it's possible to get rid of your AB side, and denying that side of you will make it even more pronounced and only make it scream louder until you go and binge on AB things. So, just try to accept it and try to realize that these ideas about gender aren't exactly static or Truth with a capital T. It's more like fashion. It's changing constantly. You'll never be able to win when trying to be what other people want you to be, because 100 other people want you to be 100 different things.

  4. #4

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    I wholly agree with Frogsy.

    Why do you think girly things are girly? It isn't because you were born knowing that some things are "for girls" and others are "for boys". Society taught you those things, and if you ask me, they're harmful things to be taught.
    Those books on masculinity you're reading are only upholding those ideals that people are expected to live up to.

    I'm a transguy, I've dealt with insecurities about my masculinity since puberty. But wanting to adhere to what society deems masculine doesn't mean you have to ignore every single feminine trait about you. Human beings are inherently both masculine and feminine. To say you feel ashamed of your little/feminine/sissy side... I can only infer you feel those feelings of shame because society has told you it's shameful to be feminine when you're a man.

    Don't listen to the books, the T.V., the movies, the magazines, the advertisements, don't even listen to to other people... they're biased and they don't know you like you know yourself. Look inside yourself for both the masculine and the feminine. Stop letting others define your masculinity and femininity and start giving those things your own definition. Everyone's is different!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlankieLover View Post
    .... They are about being the best man you can be; masculine, able to set boundaries, show and demand respect, be empathic, help and support those in need (whilst making your own needs the priority), show honour, courage, strength, compassion, being courteous, chivalrous, be a leader, manage our egos and emotions. It's all good healthy stuff.

    However, I wonder whether my little 2 year old girl, shy, gentle, vulnerable little lamb who needs reassurance and kindness, unconditional love and nurturing from mummy is holding me back from the masculine work. My little baby side, you could say, is the antithesis to this powerful masculine figure. I just can't seem to stop my little girl from entering whenever i see an attractive woman. I don't think of sex or mutual age-appropriate relationship; I want her to cuddle me and soothe me off to sleep....
    Well you have your thesis, and your antithesis - what you need now is a good synthesis and that will be your reconciliation ;-)

    I think this is an issue that all of us who are ABDLs have to face, we have to reconcile our desires for things which are considered immature and being mature adults, and those of use who are Sissys/male LGs have the double issue of reconciling those desires with our masculinity.

    Thinking about my own experience, and looking at what you've described I would say: Yes, your Little side is holding you back, but probably not the way that you think.
    The masculine ideals that you're aiming at are all good aspirations to have, however I'm guessing that what you're also aspiring to (even if you don't say it to yourself explicitly) is NOT to be the things you've listed as the qualities of your Little side. A need for reassurance and kindness, love and nurturing, feeling vulnerable or shy - these are all normal parts of human life and they happen to everyone. As for gentle - would you rather be... careless, brutal, cruel? what's the alternative?
    You need to find a way to have these as part of your everyday life and character, rather than thinking of them as part of a separate age-play persona. Assigning these things to a Little persona can make you feel like those things belong to another person, but all you're doing is avoiding the truth about them being part of what you want and need. I've tried to do that trick myself - I would only express the feelings and desires I wished I didn't have when I was under that mask of being my Little - and it was a disaster. It was how I ended up on citalopram.

    I don't mean you have to abandon your Little, or that you have to be Little all the time - just that you can't put the burden of certain types of feelings onto one small part of your character, and eliminate them from the rest of you, that's not how it works.

    Don't judge yourself on a single instant in time or a single action. The AB and Sissy / LG things that you do and enjoy are do not define you, and they don't invalidate anything else in your life. There's also nothing wrong with them - they're just not popular.

    Try this exercise: write down all the things your Little is, wants, needs, enjoys, and then read it back to yourself out loud saying "I ..." and "My ..." and see how it makes you feel as you do it.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogsy View Post
    Do you think it's possible that your rigid views on gender is the reason for a mental split between a super masculine role and a overly feminine role you now have? They say that what you resist persists. So resisting your feminine side is probably not the best way to go about it. It's hard to tell someone to just go and rethink their entire view on gender. I won't say that. But I find it strange that books have advice on how to be a good man, specifically, and I wonder how that would differ from being a good woman? Have you considered the strange nature of such a book in the first place? Shouldn't they really be just books on how to be a good person?

    The whole idea of gender roles and the idea that men specifically can't do anything feminine isn't an idea that you came up with, of course. It's just messages from society and culture ingrained in your head. Maybe just being aware that it's nothing but societal standards, that change all the time, would be enough to help you become more comfortable with all aspects of your personality, whether they be masculine or feminine ones. But nonetheless I wish you the best luck on your journey in self discovery. I don't think it's possible to get rid of your AB side, and denying that side of you will make it even more pronounced and only make it scream louder until you go and binge on AB things. So, just try to accept it and try to realize that these ideas about gender aren't exactly static or Truth with a capital T. It's more like fashion. It's changing constantly. You'll never be able to win when trying to be what other people want you to be, because 100 other people want you to be 100 different things.
    To clarify here, I don't think there is anything peculiar about a book advising you on being the best man you can since there are fundamental hard-wired differences between the genders. No More Mr Nice Guy comes from the point of view of male co-dependency, which is a major mental stumbling block; they give to get, fix and caretake, seek approval, avoid conflict, repress their feelings, make their partner their emotional centre and more. Being someone who since his teens and all through his adult life has never felt comfortable relating to men, this is important work for me. At the end of the day, it is about becoming a better person, just with a pro-masculine stance; it's OK to be a guy. It's OK to put your needs first, to be the leader etc. The book focuses on removing the Nice-Guy traits with a series of exercises and fundamental to this is having at least 3 guys who will accept you and be your mentor. Far from being "nice", Nice guys are dishonest, secretive, manipulative, controlling, passive aggressive, cannot set boundaries and have problems with intimacy and sex.
    There's nothing wrong with having some feminine side in there but when it dominates, in my opinion, you're identified as a sensitive/metrosexual/non-threatening/non-sexual guy and none of these characters are attractive to women.

    BL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritime View Post
    I wholly agree with Frogsy.

    Why do you think girly things are girly? It isn't because you were born knowing that some things are "for girls" and others are "for boys". Society taught you those things, and if you ask me, they're harmful things to be taught.
    Those books on masculinity you're reading are only upholding those ideals that people are expected to live up to.

    I'm a transguy, I've dealt with insecurities about my masculinity since puberty. But wanting to adhere to what society deems masculine doesn't mean you have to ignore every single feminine trait about you. Human beings are inherently both masculine and feminine. To say you feel ashamed of your little/feminine/sissy side... I can only infer you feel those feelings of shame because society has told you it's shameful to be feminine when you're a man.

    Don't listen to the books, the T.V., the movies, the magazines, the advertisements, don't even listen to to other people... they're biased and they don't know you like you know yourself. Look inside yourself for both the masculine and the feminine. Stop letting others define your masculinity and femininity and start giving those things your own definition. Everyone's is different!
    I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't expect a woman to be any less of a woman than I'd expect a man to be any less of a man and I think gender specific toys are important from a certain age to establish and solidify one's gender. There can be some swing either way but fundamentally were talking about 2.5 million years of evolution. That's not likely to change any time soon. My worry with my little girl side is not so much that I indulge in it, more that I wonder to what extent it is affecting my adult male life with regard to male and female relationships. There's a point at which a fetish begins to negatively impact the rest of your life and this is my worry. If I am ashamed of my little sissy side, I think we have to look at what degree of femininity that represents. An effeminate guy has more femininity than most but a 34 year old man who dresses in petticoats, gingham dresses, pink tights, knee high socks, diapers and cuddles a blankie like a 2 year old is 100% right over there and I'd say the vast majority of society would not accept that. You could argue "who cares"? But if someone I knew found out or caught me red handed I would be mortified. It's very much a private thing. I would be very nervous even going to visit a real adult baby mummy and I've only recently joined these forums after 13 years or so of practicing.

    BL

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlankieLover View Post
    T
    There are fundamental hard-wired differences between the genders.BL
    Simply untrue. Gender is a made up concept by our society. Genders are handled very differently in other cultures and time periods. BIOLOGICAL SEX is "hardwired", but not fundamentally different. Biological sex is a spectrum. There are many intersex individuals. I think we can agree that everyone has a little bit of thier body that does not match thier overall sex. For example: facial hair in women. For me personaly I don't have broad shoulders and I could probably pass for a girl because of my bone structure.




    Quote Originally Posted by BlankieLover View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't expect a woman to be any less of a woman than I'd expect a man to be any less of a man and I think gender specific toys are important from a certain age to establish and solidify one's gender. BL
    Not possible or safe to attempt. Everyone is thier own unique flavor of person. Some are 99.92% Male, 0.08 Female. Some are 70% Male, 30% Female in terms of the gender they feel. Many people are outside the binary entirely: Bigender, agender, genderqueer...



    Quote Originally Posted by BlankieLover View Post
    There can be some swing either way but fundamentally were talking about 2.5 million years of evolution. That's not likely to change any time soon.BL
    Your right in that evolution and the human form will not change any time soon, however gender is not a product of nature. Gender is a concept made up by man. There are male bodied people, female bodied people, and indeterminante bodied people. This is all nature has given us. We made up the rest.




    Quote Originally Posted by BlankieLover View Post
    My worry with my little girl side is not so much that I indulge in it, more that I wonder to what extent it is affecting my adult male life with regard to male and female relationships. There's a point at which a fetish begins to negatively impact the rest of your life and this is my worry. If I am ashamed of my little sissy side, I think we have to look at what degree of femininity that represents. An effeminate guy has more femininity than most but a 34 year old man who dresses in petticoats, gingham dresses, pink tights, knee high socks, diapers and cuddles a blankie like a 2 year old is 100% right over there and I'd say the vast majority of society would not accept that. You could argue "who cares"? But if someone I knew found out or caught me red handed I would be mortified. It's very much a private thing. I would be very nervous even going to visit a real adult baby mummy and I've only recently joined these forums after 13 years or so of practicing.
    BL
    Basically you need help. This "little girl side" is part of you. You need to accept it and cherish it. When you do you will find that it can be your greatest asset. I finally came out and suddenly I had all these freinds. Real friends.

    Bottom line is that people are just people. You should do your research on the trans* community. It would help you reconcile with your true self.

  8. #8

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    Wow... You've trapped yourself in a world of sexism and stereotypes, and it's become the place you feel 'safe' even as much as you seem to feel uncomfortable with it at the same time. I feel so sorry for you. o.o

  9. #9

    Default

    I hope that I can reconcile the 2. What I'm talking about in regard to the differences between men and women is in their thinking and thinking patterns. Sure, we share a lot of commonality but there are thoughts and actions that are generally female and generally male otherwise we would be one homogeneous identical single gender.

    - - - Updated - - -

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by AshleyAshes View Post
    Wow... You've trapped yourself in a world sexism and stereotypes, and it's become the place you feel 'safe' even as much as you seem to feel uncomfortable with it at the same time. I feel so sorry for you. o.o
    I don't need your pity, thank you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by MsClaraRiddle View Post
    Well you have your thesis, and your antithesis - what you need now is a good synthesis and that will be your reconciliation ;-)

    I think this is an issue that all of us who are ABDLs have to face, we have to reconcile our desires for things which are considered immature and being mature adults, and those of use who are Sissys/male LGs have the double issue of reconciling those desires with our masculinity.

    Thinking about my own experience, and looking at what you've described I would say: Yes, your Little side is holding you back, but probably not the way that you think.
    The masculine ideals that you're aiming at are all good aspirations to have, however I'm guessing that what you're also aspiring to (even if you don't say it to yourself explicitly) is NOT to be the things you've listed as the qualities of your Little side. A need for reassurance and kindness, love and nurturing, feeling vulnerable or shy - these are all normal parts of human life and they happen to everyone. As for gentle - would you rather be... careless, brutal, cruel? what's the alternative?
    You need to find a way to have these as part of your everyday life and character, rather than thinking of them as part of a separate age-play persona. Assigning these things to a Little persona can make you feel like those things belong to another person, but all you're doing is avoiding the truth about them being part of what you want and need. I've tried to do that trick myself - I would only express the feelings and desires I wished I didn't have when I was under that mask of being my Little - and it was a disaster. It was how I ended up on citalopram.

    I don't mean you have to abandon your Little, or that you have to be Little all the time - just that you can't put the burden of certain types of feelings onto one small part of your character, and eliminate them from the rest of you, that's not how it works.

    Don't judge yourself on a single instant in time or a single action. The AB and Sissy / LG things that you do and enjoy are do not define you, and they don't invalidate anything else in your life. There's also nothing wrong with them - they're just not popular.

    Try this exercise: write down all the things your Little is, wants, needs, enjoys, and then read it back to yourself out loud saying "I ..." and "My ..." and see how it makes you feel as you do it.
    Awesome post. Thanks

  10. #10

    Default

    Hey BlankieLover,

    First off, you should be proud of what you accomplished so far. To get off those drugs is quite an achievement. I can't relate to that part of your story, but I do understand another part very well.

    Like you, I'm a guy who feels the pull of being an LG. And like you, I felt the need to be a strong alpha male. I was part of a community that encouraged these sharp divides in gender roles, and told men to be men and women to be women. To lime feminine things would have gotten you some.very strange looks at the best, and possibly a severe blow in social standing.

    So I did my best to be an alpha male, even though I'm really not. I did my best to follow all the male rules. I even read No More Mr Nice Guy (which is better than most books on masculinity because it encourages a healthy self-concept rather than certain behaviors). Basically, I did everything I could to "play the man", and I think I did a decent job.
    Actually, I didn't. I read a book with a similar title on an entirely different subject - see below.

    But the LG feelings still remained.

    The only way I ever got that LG side to a healthy place where I wasnt hating myself over it was to accept it. I had to accept that this was a part of me, and give it space to grow. Not enough to take over, but enough that in private, occasionally, I could let my girly side out. Only then did I find peace.

    Now, how did this affect my masculine identity? Did it make me less of a man? No; it forced me to redefine what being a man is.

    Frogsy and ForeverSmall have made some strong points on this issue. I'd develop their line of reasoning further and say that your activities have no bearing on your gender. And your gender has no bearing on your activities. Women can play football (and do). Men can crochet (and do). It doesn't make them more or less masculine or feminine. Gender is what you choose to make it. You can be a man and an LG.

    As for this idea of gender roles, it's true that certain traits are more common to males and females. But they're not universal by any means. Men don't have to be tough, resilient leaders all the time. Lots have tried and none have succeeded. Every man needs to be weak and small sometimes because we only have so much strength to give. It's vital to accept that we can't be superheroes. I still try to, and that's when I end up needing to be an LG. In fact, I wonder if LGs emerge because we never get to show weakness and dependence (or get mocked for showing it). So our minds create the weakest, most dependent possible figure as an ideal. Our LG needs could be seen as a sign of how desperately we need this care.

    The only practical step I can give you is to accept that your LG side is a part of you, and that's ok. You need tenderness and love, and that's ok. I left my little side locked out for years, convinced it'd harm me. The relief from letting myself become her was indescribable. Allow her to be a part of you. Give yourself the gentle love and affection you need.

    This will affect things. I'm not pretending it won't. But before you can worry about how being an LG will affect your life, make sure you have your needs taken care of. You can't do much after a breakdown. Take care of yourself, including that adorable 2 year old inside of you. When you've found a balance, you'll be better able to handle everything else.

    We can only heal from trauma when we have a healthy grasp of ourselves. Before all else, stop fighting your little side. Bring her in. Love and accept her. When you do that, the rest can come with time and effort. Know that it's OK, and you're OK for being an LG. And you've got my support, and that of everyone here.
    Last edited by Adventurer; 27-Dec-2013 at 19:54. Reason: I didn't actually read the book I said I did

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