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Thread: Same sex marriages

  1. #1

    Default Same sex marriages

    Here in Canada we just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the legalization of same sex marriage. This was after many decades of fighting various governments through the courts and winning each case province by province until the issue wound up in the Supreme Court. The court ruled it discriminatory to deny civil rights to people based on their sexual orientation. In spite of the fear-mongering of right wing religious fundamentalists, the sky has not fallen in nor has the institution of marriage been diminished. I was wondering what laws other countries have around gay marriages, either good or bad, and how the battle is going around the world.

  2. #2

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    The fact that marriage is still a government sanctioned and encouraged institution at all will be the next big battle. The few remaining right wing religious nuts will fight on the same side as marriage loving folks of all orientations when this comes about. As for marriage being diminished, there's no way gay marriage could possibly diminish it below the economically, legally and sexually driven enterprise it is today. I find it sad that we as a society feel the need to be licensed and recognized in a legal sense by the government as being a couple. Sure I get the social high we get from getting up in front of our social circles and declaring our intent to do fun things in the bedroom together until and fight about what colour the walls should be, but why do we need to ask the government permission to get up in front of our friends and say these things and get all prettified and hire a DJ to play cheesy romantic songs from the 80's?

    That being said, if we must have government sanctioned marriage, then I'm glad we have it shared equally with adults of all legitimate sexual orientations.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    The fact that marriage is still a government sanctioned and encouraged institution at all will be the next big battle. The few remaining right wing religious nuts will fight on the same side as marriage loving folks of all orientations when this comes about. As for marriage being diminished, there's no way gay marriage could possibly diminish it below the economically, legally and sexually driven enterprise it is today. I find it sad that we as a society feel the need to be licensed and recognized in a legal sense by the government as being a couple. Sure I get the social high we get from getting up in front of our social circles and declaring our intent to do fun things in the bedroom together until and fight about what colour the walls should be, but why do we need to ask the government permission to get up in front of our friends and say these things and get all prettified and hire a DJ to play cheesy romantic songs from the 80's?

    That being said, if we must have government sanctioned marriage, then I'm glad we have it shared equally with adults of all legitimate sexual orientations.
    The whole "government shouldn't have anything to do with marriage at all" argument is a pet-peeve of mine. It's an absolutist argument devoid of all pragmatism and vastly understates the legal utility of having government-sanctioned marriage.

    Marriage can be seen as shorthand for a contract between two individuals which is extensive enough to cost 5 figures worth of legal work to replicate. Sanctioned by the government, a marriage license can be had for the cost of a meal out together, and is greatly strengthened by the fact that it is backed by extensive case law rather than being one random contract. Moreover, there is mutual recognition of government-sanctioned marriage across legal jurisdictions - something that is especially important when dealing with rights and legal issues across multiple countries.


    In general, the government sanctions marriage because it is a tendency of human biology to eventually find a mate with whom they intend to couple with for life. These tend to create more stable households than those of individuals and ones that often have dependent children in them, who are both a long-term boon to the economy and people who will bear the negative effects of instability in a household without being at fault for that instability. It's in both the interest of the couple and of society to encourage marriage among committed couples.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fruitkitty View Post
    because it is a tendency of human biology to eventually find a mate with whom they intend to couple with for life.
    To be fair, I'm pretty sure humans don't tend to be biologically monogamous:

    Are We Biologically Inclined to Couple for Life?: Scientific American

    If we were, we wouldn't spend certain amounts of time fantasizing about sexual encounters with others when we're perfectly content having sexual relations with our life partners in the real world. Our society has conditioned us to seek out monogamy for all the society-building reasons that you mention, and these reasons are laudable. However, with the atrocious rates of divorce driven by the biologically non-monogamous critters we are, and other societies clinging to medieval definitions of marriage as an exchange of property, I can't help but roll my eyes at the thought of marriage as a government institution.

    I admit tremendous personal bias against government interference, as well as the legal system in general. I can see the legal benefits of marriage, and I won't even commit to the idea that I will not get married - I'm under that very pressure right now - I just can't imagine what asking the government's permission to throw a wickedly expensive social engagement will do to make my own household more stable, when I see relationships both married and not fall apart all the time.

  5. #5

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    If I ever find a soul mate even if it is another man I don't want the government telling me that we can not be married. When two people fall in love it is something special the government has no place in it.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by starrunner View Post
    I was wondering what laws other countries have around gay marriages, either good or bad, and how the battle is going around the world.
    I don't have much to say on the subject, but a quick web search brings up some interesting maps and graphics:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_r...y_or_territory
    ILGA - INTERNATIONAL LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, TRANS AND INTERSEX ASSOCIATION
    http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cd...3eeec25aba.jpg

    There's a news article here:
    Gay Marriage Support High In Developed Nations, Poll Finds

    And here's a diagram showing the varying gay-rights legislation in force in the various US states (as of 8 May 2012):
    Gay rights in the US, state by state | World news | guardian.co.uk

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oooh! And an update from England (and Wales)... Two days ago, gay marriage was legalised after it received Royal Assent!

    Finally legal: Queen gives gay marriage the Royal Assent - Home News - UK - The Independent
    BBC News - Same-sex marriage becomes law in England and Wales

  7. #7

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    Here in New Hampshire, Same-Sex Marriage is legal.

    In "real life", I am serving now as a Deacon Elder of my church, which is "Open & Affirming" & accepts LGBT people as part of God's Family.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    I'm under that very pressure right now - I just can't imagine what asking the government's permission to throw a wickedly expensive social engagement will do to make my own household more stable, when I see relationships both married and not fall apart all the time.
    Nobody says you need to have an expensive ceremony. You can have a ceremony for as cheap as hiring someone to officiate it.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fruitkitty View Post
    Nobody says you need to have an expensive ceremony. You can have a ceremony for as cheap as hiring someone to officiate it.
    Or you could ask a buddy to do it. Getting ordained is only a couple hundred dollars.

  10. #10

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    The importance of government sanctioned unions is as said above, that it legally protects the participants. When two people come together to live together, there are finances involved. The legal contract of a marriage can protect the participants in as much as they will have to have some sort of mutual arbitration should that marriage be ended. Property has to be divided in a fair and equitable way.

    Other reasons for legal union enables couples to joint hospitalization plans, visitation rights in the hospital, and most importantly, child support should there be children.

    Since religion cannot dictate law in western civilizations, there is no defense to deny same sex marriage, in my opinion. What amuses me is the attitude of conservative politicians who oppose it, thinking there are so many gay people that it will crash all of society. Gay people are such a small minority of the population, especially those who want to get married, that they are a small bump in the economic road. As for threatening heterosexual marriage....what a joke. Half of all marriages end in divorce.

    And yes, when I got married, they took my gold. THEY TOOK ALL MY DAMN FU*K'N GOLD!!!!

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