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Thread: ABDLs and justifications

  1. #1

    Default ABDLs and justifications

    I've poked my nose around these forums for some time now, and never been a huge contributor as you can obviously tell from my account, however, something has always bothered me very specifically about a vast majority of topics concerning individuals trying to find a way to fit in in this world as a ABDL. ( sorry for the mega run on sentence there).

    This specifically is the justification on which I always see people use to say it is OK to divulge in this little quirk many of us here have. I understand it is a coping mechanism; its OK to do this and this is why, but I get tired of everyone using the same "this is why". The justification of "at least we are not stress alcoholics, smokers, drug users" is a fairly legitimate reason to say its ok to do what we do, but is it really a viable justification to one on the outside of our little social niche? If your loved ones and friends suddenly gained a copy of the inner workings of your mind, would this be a viable reason for them? Would not the best path to take, when someone we cared about discovered this part of us, be to explain this is truly who we are, rather than retort with what I feel is a lame excuse of justification. If someone told me they cut themself to release stress, and use the excuse of "at least I'm not an alcoholic!", I would look at them like they were crazy that they'd even use that as a reason for what they do what they do. Look at the perspective of those around you rather than the narrow scope of your own view of the world, and a whole new spectrum of possibilities opens upon your realization of the effects of your actions and the daisy chain which extends from every action.

    Sorry, this is a rant post, but I want to hear other people's thoughts on this. It is great that people outside who have these tendencies that we have are willing to come online as an alias and seek out new friends with similar interests, but is it necessary that we pat each other on the back and repeat the typical catechism to welcome them into this little corner of recognizance of the human psyche? I personally don't believe that a justification makes any thing better. In my religious life which I will not delve further than what I shall say here in a moment, an acquaintance of mine used a phrase "justification only greases the path to hell." I feel like coming to terms with ones self should not be built on a foundation of justification. It should be built upon the acceptance of one's own self and whom he or she actually is, not what they think they should be.

    For those of you familiar with the Eragon book series, in the ancient language, each person had a true name. A name which could only be discovered by deep meditation and a true understanding of who they really were. This name was deeply secret upon someone acquiring the name, and the name could change if the person made a deep enough change of character, causing the old name to become invalid. The name was also a potential weapon against this person should someone find it and use it against them as it gave them absolute power over their very being. This name was often shared between the elves who had become mates (the elves in the book had a pretty deep culture, the elves became mates, not spouses. there was no ceremony of joining like marriage.). I feel like this is almost the case as with human beings. Not that we can be controlled by some magical keyword, but rather that this inner personality is something that many of us wouldn't dare expose to someone that we were not deeply affected by. We truly discover who we are by being true to ourselves and that is what I feel attracts many people to websites involving a very secret part of their life. But I feel that many err along this path directly where I am talking about. I feel that we should come to terms of self acceptance and understanding through socially aligning ourselves to others on similar psychological paths, I feel like this is very helpful, however, I do not feel like its alright to welcome someone in who is experiencing difficulties in this part of their life by telling them that at least they aren't addicted to drugs. It belittles them if I might be as bold to say! We should be happy with who we are, the vast majority of us live perfectly socially normal lives aside from our little quirk. I would say that we should come to acceptance with who we are, not who we think we are. We should come to terms that this quirk is more than likely to never go away, and I feel like that unless it comes to a point where we faced with a crossing of two worlds in which we must tell this person about our secret side, that this is something that should, if not must, be kept solely to ourselves. Pushing for ABDLism to become a social norm I feel is wrong, much as I feel other social aspects of individuals life should be. Who someone loves whether of the same sex or not, should be kept only to them and direct loved ones and friends who should know. I feel the same way of transgender individuals, for people who get abortions, for those who recreationally use marajuana. Pushing for the social normalcy of this, once again, I believe, is philosophically wrong. Who we are is our business and no one else's. The world does not need to know, only those who are close to us who have grounds for needing to know.

    Thanks for reading my rant, and philosophical argument. Looking forward to the comments and counter arguments. Excuse any grammatical errors I may have made, I'm not an English major, but I do enjoy writing on topics I'm interested in.

  2. #2

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    I agree with you on this one regarding the addiction line and I've posted about it in the past. It's not my pet project or anything, so I have doubtless let some slide. I know of others who similarly find it to be a poor justification although one of the most vocal on the subject is no longer active. I think the suggestion that this is fundamentally similar to an addiction to dangerous substances is both innacurate and unhelpful. While I would concede that ABDL urges can be harmful if overindulged, there are any number of things that also fall into that category and I wouldn't be quick to suggest the downsides of reasonable indulgence. I think we'd be better served to accentuate the positives and how this is just one unusual human behavior among many rather than linking it to something decidedly negative.

    I don't think there's a risk of ABDL behavior becoming normalized any time soon with the rest of society. I can't agree with the other items on your list. They affect life too broadly to be kept under wraps and there is no compelling reason to do so.
    Last edited by Trevor; 05-Jul-2013 at 06:37. Reason: Additional thoughts.

  3. #3

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    Hi Kevin,

    You've certainly put some thought into this post. There are lots of things I could respond to here. I'll start by saying that I agree with your thesis that "coming to terms with ones self should not be built on a foundation of justification". In my own struggle for self-acceptance, I've found that I could only accept myself when I stopped coming up with excuses for my AB/DL interests and just accepted that they were a part of me. This lesson was something I wish I'd learned earlier. Thank you for making that point!

    I'd also agree with the assertion that one's AB/DL side is something that shouldn't be shared unless it's with a spouse or long-term partner, as they have a right to know. However, I think it's worth examining why someone would want to "come out" in a more public way. From my own life, and talking to others on this forum, I think that the main motivation for wanting to go public is a need to be accepted. We want to reveal our darkest secret and not be put to shame. And this is a legitimate need. Without acceptance from others, we do battle with anxiety, and ultimately do start using the justifications we've just said shouldn't be used. We do naturally seek acceptance from others as a means to accepting ourselves.

    That's why I think communities like this one are so valuable. When we band together, we lift each other up. I for one am eternally grateful for the amazing friends I've made on here, and how much they've helped me accept myself. But you're right; we need to offer each other something substantial to build self-acceptance on. And this looks different for every person. Some need to be assured that they're not the only one. Others worry that being an AB/DL means that they're unstable or imbalanced. Others fear that they may be incapable of living as adults. And yes, some need to be convinced that walking down Main Street in a diaper is a bad idea. We all have different needs, and supportive communities are where they can be worked out - with folks who have been where you are and know what you're going through!

    I would raise one question, though. Do you think the "At least it's not drugs" justification is really that common? I agree that it's not what one should build their self-acceptance "catechism" on, but I don't think it's what most of us are advocating. I think it's also a perfectly valid answer to the idea that being an AB/DL is harmful or dangerous. It isn't drugs - it's something far safer! And if you're going to do something to relax, well, at least diapers aren't...you get the picture. I'm just not convinced anyone founds their self-acceptance on this statement. I sure hope not, anyway, because there are far firmer foundations.

    Finally, I would have to disagree with the idea that transgenderism and homosexuality should be left under wraps like AB/DL. I understand hiding being an AB, because that doesn't affect your day to day interactions with society and people. It's a private activity, or perhaps shared with a partner. But homosexuality and transgender affect how you relate to society, and how society relates to you. Spouses, both gay and straight, accompany each other to social functions, in public, and have legal standing together. Choosing to lice as the opposed the gender alters literally every relationship you have with society and with others. You can't just hide these things, even if they may make others uncomfortable. I agree with your point about AB/DL, because you can keep that quiet and live a happy and peaceful life. But gender and sexuality inevitably affect your public life, and the lives of those around you. So be careful equating the two. They're not the same at all, and one's sexuality and gender are public things, when a person is ready to reveal them.

    Thanks for the thoughts provoking post! Really enjoyed reading and responding to it.

  4. #4

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    I'm going to approach this from a different angle: why do I need to justify being an ABDL to start with?

    Honestly I don't see that many people here feeling they need to justify themselves, and why should they. Why is this not an interest or activity I like to partake in like any other. Do I need to justify why I like reading? Do I need to justify why I like playing minecraft? Do I need to justify why I like childrens' TV? We would live in a very strange world if we had to justify liking every single thing we do, in a lot of cases the only answer would be "because I enjoy it". Evidently we don't do that, so at what point does an interest you hold have to start being justified, when it's viewed as unusual by a majority of people? Should we start asking every adult to justify why they like whichever activities they get up to in private in the bedroom? If an activity isn't doing harm to yourself or anything else I don't think anybody should have to justify doing it.

    I think this is probably why you get the responses of "at least we are not stress alcoholics, smokers, drug users" when asked why we do this, not because it is the best answer or because it makes most sense, but because people have just been forced to quickly come up with a justification for something they shouldn't need to explain.
    If you are talking about people who have an addiction, or who psychologically need it as a coping mechanism then that's a slightly different matter, but those people I think represent only a very small part of our community - the rest partake in it because they find it fun or experience other positive emotions. That said, is it not in fact a reasonable response if you are dependant in some way? It is true that being an alcoholic, smoker or drug user as an escape would be a much more harmful course of action. Also remember with an addiction there is not necessarily always a why that is easy to explain.

    For people who are not addicted it's probably just a response to satisfy a nosy person's questioning. I agree it should probably be a private thing, but if somebody else finds out you shouldn't need to justify every unusual thing that you do. A response of "I enjoy it and it doesn't harm anyone, so what's the problem?" should be all that's required. The only reason we have to justify further is because some people feel very strongly about 'right' and 'wrong' and feel other people shouldn't partake in things that they regard as weird. In this regard justification is necessary solely because of the judgemental nature of society towards things that are different, rather than any intrinsic problem with the activity itself.

    Lastly I must disagree on your views about pushing for social normalcy on homosexuality and transgenderism. Drawing a parallel between those and ABDL activities is a false equivalency, you can partake in ABDL activities in private quite happily and lead an otherwise normal life. The other things are different because they are not activities but identities. You can not identify as an ABDL in the same way that one might identify as homosexual. Homosexuality is not something you can do in private and then be 'normal' otherwise. There are currently real life disadvantages (in terms of rights) experienced by homosexuals in many places compared to heterosexuals. Social acceptance allows them to be like anyone else in society, we do not need acceptance for ABDLs for them to be able to function normally in society when not partaking in ABDL activities - that is where the two things are different.

  5. #5

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    This is a really interesting post and one I probably would have posted a much longer reply to a couple years ago. For now though, I just want to make the point that there is a theory of the mind that, when it comes to interacting with others, we sometimes brace for a fight just in case there will be one. In fact, we sometimes go straight for the fight whether the other side is interested in fighting or not!

    They experimented this by having a bunch of kids in a room and giving one of them a ball. They then told the other kids that that particular kid had the ball and that they want to have the ball. Rather than approaching him and asking for it, they of course ran at him and tried to take it from him by force. The kid had no invested interest in keeping the ball, and every time they stopped the simulation and asked the kid who originally had the ball if he would have simply given it to someone else if they had asked him for it, they said they would have. The other kids assumed that there was going to be a battle even though there probably wouldn't have been had they approached the problem peacefully in general.

    How does a story about kids trying to forcefully take a ball from a peer relate to this topic? Well, when we've been harboring a secret that we think people won't understand or won't appreciate, we move to the assumption, whether accurate or not, that sharing that secret will likely lead to a fight. We stock up all the evidence, reasoning, and justifications we can find for our secret, and prepare to use them (and often use them anyways) regardless of whether or not we even needed them in the first place. When I came out about being ABDL to my parents, I brought in all the justifications and arguments to the conversation. I ended up using them even though my parents didn't battle me or even prompt for such justifications. I just did it anyways expecting a fight.

    Essentially, if you have to justify who you are to a person, than that person doesn't really get you and likely isn't worth your time. Just wanted to add the quick thought.

  6. #6

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin2341 View Post
    I've poked my nose around these forums for some time now, and never been a huge contributor as you can obviously tell from my account, however, something has always bothered me very specifically about a vast majority of topics concerning individuals trying to find a way to fit in in this world as a ABDL. ( sorry for the mega run on sentence there).

    This specifically is the justification on which I always see people use to say it is OK to divulge in this little quirk many of us here have. I understand it is a coping mechanism; its OK to do this and this is why, but I get tired of everyone using the same "this is why". The justification of "at least we are not stress alcoholics, smokers, drug users" is a fairly legitimate reason to say its ok to do what we do, but is it really a viable justification to one on the outside of our little social niche? If your loved ones and friends suddenly gained a copy of the inner workings of your mind, would this be a viable reason for them? Would not the best path to take, when someone we cared about discovered this part of us, be to explain this is truly who we are, rather than retort with what I feel is a lame excuse of justification. If someone told me they cut themself to release stress, and use the excuse of "at least I'm not an alcoholic!", I would look at them like they were crazy that they'd even use that as a reason for what they do what they do. Look at the perspective of those around you rather than the narrow scope of your own view of the world, and a whole new spectrum of possibilities opens upon your realization of the effects of your actions and the daisy chain which extends from every action.

    Sorry, this is a rant post, but I want to hear other people's thoughts on this. It is great that people outside who have these tendencies that we have are willing to come online as an alias and seek out new friends with similar interests, but is it necessary that we pat each other on the back and repeat the typical catechism to welcome them into this little corner of recognizance of the human psyche? I personally don't believe that a justification makes any thing better. In my religious life which I will not delve further than what I shall say here in a moment, an acquaintance of mine used a phrase "justification only greases the path to hell." I feel like coming to terms with ones self should not be built on a foundation of justification. It should be built upon the acceptance of one's own self and whom he or she actually is, not what they think they should be.

    For those of you familiar with the Eragon book series, in the ancient language, each person had a true name. A name which could only be discovered by deep meditation and a true understanding of who they really were. This name was deeply secret upon someone acquiring the name, and the name could change if the person made a deep enough change of character, causing the old name to become invalid. The name was also a potential weapon against this person should someone find it and use it against them as it gave them absolute power over their very being. This name was often shared between the elves who had become mates (the elves in the book had a pretty deep culture, the elves became mates, not spouses. there was no ceremony of joining like marriage.). I feel like this is almost the case as with human beings. Not that we can be controlled by some magical keyword, but rather that this inner personality is something that many of us wouldn't dare expose to someone that we were not deeply affected by. We truly discover who we are by being true to ourselves and that is what I feel attracts many people to websites involving a very secret part of their life. But I feel that many err along this path directly where I am talking about. I feel that we should come to terms of self acceptance and understanding through socially aligning ourselves to others on similar psychological paths, I feel like this is very helpful, however, I do not feel like its alright to welcome someone in who is experiencing difficulties in this part of their life by telling them that at least they aren't addicted to drugs. It belittles them if I might be as bold to say! We should be happy with who we are, the vast majority of us live perfectly socially normal lives aside from our little quirk. I would say that we should come to acceptance with who we are, not who we think we are. We should come to terms that this quirk is more than likely to never go away, and I feel like that unless it comes to a point where we faced with a crossing of two worlds in which we must tell this person about our secret side, that this is something that should, if not must, be kept solely to ourselves. Pushing for ABDLism to become a social norm I feel is wrong, much as I feel other social aspects of individuals life should be. Who someone loves whether of the same sex or not, should be kept only to them and direct loved ones and friends who should know. I feel the same way of transgender individuals, for people who get abortions, for those who recreationally use marajuana. Pushing for the social normalcy of this, once again, I believe, is philosophically wrong. Who we are is our business and no one else's. The world does not need to know, only those who are close to us who have grounds for needing to know.

    Thanks for reading my rant, and philosophical argument. Looking forward to the comments and counter arguments. Excuse any grammatical errors I may have made, I'm not an English major, but I do enjoy writing on topics I'm interested in.
    I appreciate what you write here, and I also disagree with the comparison to alcohol/drugs. "At least I'm not doing X" can always be framed in a way that makes the thing you're doing seem so much better and more acceptable. "At least I'm not out there murdering people" suddenly makes kleptomania seem so much better. "At least I'm not punching them in the face" makes verbal bullying seem much better. Whether or not ABDLs are doing alcohol or drugs has no bearing on the validity or acceptability of being an ABDL.

    I'll also take issue with "at least." That phrasing is a defeatist phrasing that suggests that the thing you're doing is still unacceptable. "At least I'm not out there murdering people" suggests that kleptomania is still unacceptable. "At least I'm not punching them in the face" acknowledges that verbal bullying is still not acceptable. Pay attention to advertising. There was recently a commercial for a tablet (Kindle something or other, IIRC) in which the product was compared to the iPad. The commercial showed that the iPad had a bla bla screen, and the other product also had a bla bla screen. Several comparisons like this happened, where the product was shown to have the same attributes as the iPad. The payoff at the end was that the product was a considerably lower price than the iPad. What was that commercial really saying? It wasn't saying that the product being advertised had any unique attributes or that it was superior to the iPad in any way aside from the price. What it WAS saying was that the iPad was the best product of that type on the market and the one that you should want, but that you could get this other knockoff product that mimics the iPad for less money. Likewise, saying that "at least I'm not doing drugs or alcohol" states that being an ABDL is still not appropriate or acceptable.

    I will, however, disagree with your assertion that justification is a bad thing and only acceptance will do. I think that justification is in fact an integral part of coming to acceptance in the first place. While using a sliding scale comparison to something that has no bearing on the thing you're attempting to justify is meaningless, we still have to, at some level, compare a behavior against some benchmark. This is true not only of behaviors society might frown upon but for those it would care to elevate. While "at least I'm not doing drugs" is a rather worthless comparison and justification, not causing yourself or anyone else harm seems completely valid as a comparison. Determining whether one's faith forbids an activity or not is a valid basis of comparison. Determining that stopping to open a door for someone whose arms are full will benefit that person even at your own expense (of time) is a valid basis of comparison when it comes to acceptance of that behavior.

    Consider again product advertising. One could assert that the makers/advertisers of (whatever tablet it was) did not accept that product as being a completely legitimate offering in that market. However, a company marketing a product has to compare their product to other products in order to determine whether their product is in fact a good entry into the market in the first place. Watch a Ford commercial in the U.S.. You won't see them saying they have as good of fuel economy as a Toyota or as good of towing as a Dodge or as good of features as a Chevy. You'll see them saying that they have best-in-class fuel economy and that they have towing better than Dodge and that they have exclusive features (that necessarily means you cannot get them on a Chevy or anything else). In that advertising, Ford is justifying itself, but there is also a self-acceptance, if you will, that Ford has competitive and worthwhile entries into the automotive market.

    Just saying that something is acceptable does not necessarily make it so. Saying that taking a life is acceptable does not necessarily make it so. One has to justify why taking a life might be acceptable. Perhaps the state has justified it as punishment for a particularly heinous crime. Perhaps a person was at imminent risk of great bodily harm or death but for their taking of the other person's life. Notice in these cases, though, we still have comparisons and benchmarks to justify the behaviors and make them acceptable. Likewise, just saying being an ABDL, or using the restroom at 3:00 p.m. instead of 4:00 p.m., or drinking coffee, or whatever is acceptable does not make it so. We weigh all of these things against various context-specific benchmarks to justify (and later accept or reject) these things as valid. For me, using the restroom at 3:00 is fine. Perhaps for someone else 3:00 is the shift change and they have to be present to monitor the facility entrance instead of sitting on the crapper. For me, drinking coffee is wonderful and great! A former colleague of mine who was pregnant worried about the effects of the caffeine on her potential offspring in utero, so for her, coffee was out.

    I would assert, then, that the question here is not about justification per se, but rather the validity of some of the justifications made. I would be genuinely surprised if ABDLs justified being an ABDL to themselves by telling themselves that at least they're not drinking and doing drugs. In their hearts, they would know what I said earlier-it's a defeatist outlook that signals unacceptability of the behavior. As an argumentative device, I would restate my earlier critiques as justification for my position that "at least I'm not doing drugs and alcohol" is a terrible justification.

  7. #7

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    Finally an interesting new topic to discuss! While your overall tone is one of a 'glass half empty' view, what you've proposed and put out there for discussion is a fascinating topic. One I have spent many any an evening mulling over. I also think this post deserves a TLDR. But actually, no, please do read! :P



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin2341 View Post
    This specifically is the justification on which I always see people use to say it is OK to divulge in this little quirk many of us here have. I understand it is a coping mechanism; its OK to do this and this is why, but I get tired of everyone using the same "this is why". The justification of "at least we are not stress alcoholics, smokers, drug users" is a fairly legitimate reason to say its ok to do what we do, but is it really a viable justification to one on the outside of our little social niche? If your loved ones and friends suddenly gained a copy of the inner workings of your mind, would this be a viable reason for them? Would not the best path to take, when someone we cared about discovered this part of us, be to explain this is truly who we are, rather than retort with what I feel is a lame excuse of justification. If someone told me they cut themself to release stress, and use the excuse of "at least I'm not an alcoholic!", I would look at them like they were crazy that they'd even use that as a reason for what they do what they do. Look at the perspective of those around you rather than the narrow scope of your own view of the world, and a whole new spectrum of possibilities opens upon your realization of the effects of your actions and the daisy chain which extends from every action.
    I would actually suggest that your vantage point here is the narrow one. Open-mindedness is not just the ability to comprehend from outside the box; it is the ability to empathise and put yourself in the role of another and then accept them for who they are. While you may be capable of rationally analysing your own personal situation, and commenting on others; you haven't grasped the most fundamental part of a liberal attitude. Everyone, and I mean everyone, has their own quirks. I view this as what makes life so full of variety and spice - and embrace it positively at every turn. These quirks range from small idiosyncrasies, to large character flaws; from innocent personality traits to deviant sexual desires. From my standpoint, in order for you to garner respect from this community, you must demonstrate the ability to be truly tolerant of other people, and encourage, support and love them regardless of your own instinctual feelings on their taboo quirks. It's difficult to suppress these often strong feelings. But I do. I rationalise my personal foibles, with my own sense of ethics, using a few simple questions:

    1. Will it harm me/you emotionally or physically in the future?
    2. Is it likely to harm other people emotionally or physically?

    Because of these questions, it is illogical to compare ABDL to self-harm. At a fundamental level, they are both extremely disparate. ABDL does no physical harm, and I would also argue that it does no damage to mental health if kept in balance with real life commitments. My experience, from being the shoulder to cry and and someone to talk to with other ABDL's over the years, has taught me one very important lesson. Rarely does ABDL bring damage to the life of a human being. In fact, I have both seen and experienced first hand the joy and enrichment it can bring. The key to this joy is striking a balance with one's real life and ABDL life. Like most things in life it can be approached negatively or positively. Equally, because we exist in a linear time stream, like most decisions you make during your life, it will have resounding repercussions in the coming decades. But this doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. In fact, it depends on how you personally choose to approach it. For me, the glass is most definitely half full.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin2341 View Post
    Sorry, this is a rant post, but I want to hear other people's thoughts on this. It is great that people outside who have these tendencies that we have are willing to come online as an alias and seek out new friends with similar interests, but is it necessary that we pat each other on the back and repeat the typical catechism to welcome them into this little corner of recognizance of the human psyche? I personally don't believe that a justification makes any thing better. In my religious life which I will not delve further than what I shall say here in a moment, an acquaintance of mine used a phrase "justification only greases the path to hell." I feel like coming to terms with ones self should not be built on a foundation of justification. It should be built upon the acceptance of one's own self and whom he or she actually is, not what they think they should be.
    You use the word 'justification'; I use the words 'seeking acceptance'. Both in a sense similar in meaning, but both quite different in feeling. Justification implies that you're justifying an act which has mostly negative repercussions - and thus I would never actively use it. I simply don't see ABDL as something I must justify to myself. I see it as a sexual or sensual fetish a lot of people develop in childhood for a variety of reasons e.g. first child syndrome, middle child syndrome, early sexual arousal, child abuse, simple comfort (they are a comfy thing to wear!), nostalgia etc. No, I don't need to justify being ABDL - to myself or anyone else. But what I do need in order to maintain a part of my sanity, is the acceptance from a large group of logical and rational people. What I see on here is not people justifying ABDL to each other, instead I see people looking for support, caring and making friends - in doing do garnering the acceptance that modern society simply can't/won't provide.

    Your use of vocabulary is what separates how we are both presenting ourselves on this forum, and it is a telltale sign as to how your mind works. I hope you do realise that your religion is most probably the reason you feel you must justify this to yourself? Living by a set of rules, that I am assuming were made many hundreds of years ago, often lumbers a person with a mental straight jacket preventing them from finding peace. I've seen it, over and over and over again. I find it sad and very frustrating. This is what happens when you live by a set of ethical rules created many life-times ago. I'd like to think the world has moved on quite considerably since then.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin2341 View Post
    THE WALL OF TEXT
    I do however agree with your line of thinking on the drug addiction analogy, I just don't think you've been a particularly keen observer of the veterans of this site. We don't greet noobs the way that you are making out. From what I see, we provide a logical and rational sounding board for other's concerns and fears. While the throw away 'drug' analogy may have been used off-hand once or twice, it does not mean one can just ignore the good and positive work elsewhere.

    Furthermore, I agree with what you've said about ABDL public exposure. We are not LGBTQ. We are all incredibly diverse in our like and dislikes. Standing as a group has it's place when fighting persecution and for rights, but who's persecuting us/what rights have been taken away? Battling for acceptance must be done on an individual basis. We must all, by ourselves, talk to our friends and families. Because ABDL is by every definition an individual experience tailored to you. No documentary, regardless of its intentions will ever summarise your special connection to ABDL. No t-shirts will empower you to be a man/woman and let those that you love into your life. And, if we let other extreme ends of communities do the talking for us, we're all going to have this opportunity taken away from us in the future. Can you not imagine anything worse?

    However, we must be open to what the future brings. I have a high hopes for humanity's collective tolerance of each other. One day, coming out as being ABDL just simply won't matter. But that requires a sexual fetish revolution. I think we're a way off of that yet ;3.
    Last edited by Luca; 06-Jul-2013 at 12:15.

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