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Thread: *B/DL Muckrakers

  1. #1

    Thumbs up *B/DL Muckrakers

    For those of you who do not know what a Muckraker is, I'll give you a brief definition: it's an individual who often points out issues in society without offering a resolution for said issue. Either it's because their purpose is just to point it out, or they simply don't know how to fix it.

    I think that we actually have quite a few *B/DL Muckrakers here on ADISC, at least, when it comes to our own community. I consider myself one- knowing that a lot of my ideas would require a near revolution in *B/DL social norms and such, and as such I often don't offer them. Anyone else here notice plenty of glares in our community, point them out, but just don't have a solution?

  2. #2


    Sure, we're all guilty of it at one point or another because it is so easy to point out a problem but coming up with a solution is much more difficult and especially coming up with a well thought out solution. You may want public acceptance while pointing out how bad AB/DL documentaries are but coming up with an alternative way to get ourselves noticed in the mainstream is much more difficult. It's not unique to our community as all humans do it at some point but to be fair it could be seen as better that we're aware of the problems rather than ignoring them because at least that allows for the community to work to solve a problem, one mind may not be great but together we have a chance of finding a solution rather than burying our heads in the sand.

  3. #3


    I'll never forget the matra of stupid managers who have "read a book on management" and think they have it sussed for an easy life:

    "Don't come to me with problems; come to me with solutions," they'd say.

    Oh... okay, then. The building's on fire, the phone lines and mobile networks are down and I don't know how to put the fire out... so... I'll just keep it to myself and watch it burn rather than bother anyone with a problem for which I don't know the solution...

    Honestly, I can't see why "muckraking" (as you put it) should be seen as a bad thing. The more in-depth analysis of a problem, the better our understanding of it, and the greater the chance that someone will identify a solution. The purpose of collaboration and co-operation is to share ideas so that the best ones can be selected, and I see nothing wrong in volunteering helpful/useful information for which I have no immediate solution. The person sitting next to me might have the answers, saving me hours or months of unnecessary work.

    Rather than keeping quiet about the office fire, it would be better to say, "The building's on fire, there are no extinguishing materials to hand and I can't think of a way to contact the fire brigade," rather than worrying about being called a "muckraker" because you can't fix every problem instantly all by yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liam117 View Post
    I consider myself one- knowing that a lot of my ideas would require a near revolution in *B/DL social norms and such, and as such I often don't offer them.
    I'm not sure I follow... You have ideas that would require a revolution, but don't have any solution... wouldn't the revolution be the solution? (Do you have an example?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Liam117 View Post
    Anyone else here notice plenty of glares in our community, point them out, but just don't have a solution?
    I'm not sure what you mean... What's a "glare"? Just the way someone looks...? Why would there be a solution for that...? I mean, what's the problem that you'd be trying to solve? If you want someone to stop glaring, isn't pointing them out enough of a solution...? (Sorry -- I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. Think I need my morning coffee!)

  4. #4


    Quote Originally Posted by Liam117 View Post
    For those of you who do not know what a Muckraker is, I'll give you a brief definition: it's an individual who often points out issues in society without offering a resolution for said issue. Either it's because their purpose is just to point it out, or they simply don't know how to fix it.
    I've always considered someone a 'muckraker' for spreading malicious rumours/gossiping about others... not for pointing out issues in society...

    Nevertheless, I often feel that often simply pointing out there IS a problem can be part of the solution, similar to what Tiny said. In fact I personally think the majority of 'problems' I personally have with the ABDL community are not issues that need lengthy solutions... I think often simply mentioning your distaste is enough to influence change. For instance this trend of people saying 'omg the abdul community needs acceptance now omg', to me, that is a mild 'problem', and the solution IMHO is for as many people as possible to point out why this is unnecessary. Of course, people are people, you can't actually STOP the occasional person from deciding to 'spread the word' about ABDL or whatever, but by showing much of the community disapproves it makes it harder to justify as 'for the good of everyone'. Similarly, I feel the only way to show trolls/liars their bullshit stories aren't going to be accepted is to simply speak out about it, you don't need to create a whole counterattack.

    Largely, the problems in the ABDL community are subjective. What's a problem to one person is not a problem to another. For some people, the fact vanilla people don't accept us is a 'problem'... To me, people who are on a crusade to get us accepted are a problem*. What kind of problems are you on about here? Problems with the people and community, or problems with other things, like, the lack of good diapers for smaller people, untrustworthy ABDL businesses, etc.? Is a 'glare' here supposed to mean like a 'glaring issue'?

    * the word 'problem' looks reallly weird right now...

  5. #5


    CharliePup sums up how I feel quite well. To add some more to it....

    It's rather surprising to me how the AB/DL community is pretty damn close to that of a geek community in behavior, especially this particular corner of the net. I remember reading this particular excerpt from a Gawker article:

    As anyone who spent time at a liberal-arts college knows, communities oriented around openness and acceptance can have trouble figuring out exactly where the boundaries are. "The relationship between legitimate social justice activists and delusional weirdos is ever-changing and gives fascinating insights into how activist communities work," Tumblr.TXT says. There's a sharp division between the activists who believe their ethical and ideological commitments require them to accept to be open to any professed identity.
    From Otherkin to Transethnicity: Your Field Guide to the Weird World of Tumblr Identity Politics

    Replace a few words and phrases with AB/DL ones and you can slap that on ours just as easy.

    We already have established norms in our little community that "police" it, and that's that. But because our little community is so small, we often see the same problems repeated over and over again to the point is drives some of us crazy.

    >We've banned people for advocating use of used diapers, and frown on people staying in them long periods of time.

    >We've banned threads concerning off label use of laxatives, and the infamous marshmallow trick so many love (that's right).

    >We've frowned on people that rant and rave like a social justice activist for AB/DLs and their unfounded beliefs about it.

    Then the people that advocate or do these things cry out "You're supposed to be supporting! Why can't you just accept this is what I want to do! I ASKED for encouragement for this (yet I want your opinion)!"


    That problem is not on us as a community, but is purely born from the unrealistic expectations (or other issues) from the individual in question. That's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Five Geek Social Fallacies
    Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

    GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

    In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in -- or tolerating -- the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

    As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration -- and it usually does -- it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don't like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

    This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don't know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.

    Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am

    The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their "tribe" as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

    This seems straightforward and reasonable. It's important for people to have a space where they feel safe and accepted. Ideally, everyone's social group would be a safe haven. When people who rely too heavily upon that refuge feel insecure in that haven, however, a commendable ideal mutates into its pathological form, GSF2.
    Five Geek Social Fallacies

    I swear I've seen some threads and notions play out like this on here.

  6. #6


    Muckraking has little, if anything, to do with failing to offer a resolution. In its very nature a muckraker searches out and publicized scandalous information, in an underhanded manner, regarding those who are well known or famous. Offering a resolution doesn't change the fact that such an act us muckraking, and not offering a resolution doesn't make the act muckraking.

    A good example of muckraking might be a celebrity gossip program or paper.

    I seriously don't see an issue with muckraking in this forum at all, at least not to the point that it is even noticeable.

    Now to the issue of people bringing up issues, concerns, etc without offering a solution. I think Tiny makes some really great points here. Sometimes a person is just not going to have a solution to a problem, so how are they supposed to get an answer. This forum exists, it is a great resource, and there are a very large number of participants who offer tremendous wisdom. Just as Tiny points out, what you are calling muckraking is not a bad thing at all. However, actual muckraking is not a behavior that is particularly helpful but, rather, is typically extremely damaging.

  7. #7


    I kind of agree. Muckcracking is more having a habbit of what one of my bosses called "turd spotting:" always being the one to point out problems while expecting others to provide solutions. This, IMHO, implies a habitual thing. Just offering a complaint about something once in a while, just to speak your mind is acceptable constructive criticism.

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