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Thread: Men's Rights Activism

  1. #1

    Default Men's Rights Activism

    Gender issues are a bit of an interest of mine since, as a male, they do impact me to a fair degree. Men's right's activism also speaks worlds on certain other "privilege equality" movements (such as Christian Right's movements) and some current beliefs held in relation to equality and claims behind them.

    It's very hard for me to see, even justify with current evidence to suggest there is even a remotely serious, institutionalized discrimination against men on more than several levels in society.

    From my understandings and research into the subject, I think there is a growing men's problem, but not in the way most Men's Rights Activists are focusing on. To me, outdated and inflexible men's gender roles have created a lot of current problems for men which I feel requires a lot of attention to rectify. What I find so interesting about a lot of complaints of MIAs, is that most of the problems are due to institutionalized male gender roles, and men themselves still contribute to the out dated system. Now there is some change to that system and current Gender role conflict is the issue.

    Most of my research has come from this site's links to research: http://www.xyonline.net/

    What do you think of Men's Right's Activism, and beliefs on equality as a whole and actions under those ideas. (by meaning, some debates usually drop "well I'm egalitarian, discrimination is discrimination.")

  2. #2

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    I have to agree with you Geno. As a white male, I've had doors opened for me that others wouldn't have, especially black males. I say this because I have been a church music director all of my life, much of it as a full time director. White churches historically pay better than black churches, at least in the United States. Sadly, most all white congregations would have never hired a black minister of music. I realize this doesn't necessarily address the question, whether males are now in some way, treated with less equality. Certainly, data shows that men, working in the same job market as women, receive more pay, by 30 percent if my memory serves me. Minorities make considerably less, and for many, complicated reasons.

    If the conservative Christian church is pushing this agenda, that males have less place in society, I would consider the source, and my guess is that this is somehow tied into the political quagmire of total nonsense. They would like us to believe that the only religion in the U. S. that is discriminated against is Christianity. That problem with that reasoning is that in the U. S. Christianity is the majority religion. In fact, we've just seen Obama change one of the tenants of his medical care program, to accommodate Christian institutions so that they don't have to pay for birth control. I actually believe he did the right thing. All institutions should be respected for their beliefs and customs.

    Today's political influence on society is becoming toxic, in my opinion. I've never seen so much negativity since the McCarthy trials, and I was just a small child when that occurred. I saw it during Vietnam, love the country as Hawks saw it, or leave the country. Now as seen by the more extreme segment of society, if you don't believe as they do, you're a bad American and an extreme socialist. It would appear to me that males still wield a lot of power.

  3. #3

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    To me, outdated and inflexible men's gender roles have created a lot of current problems for men which I feel requires a lot of attention to rectify.
    could you explain your views more? like, what does 'outdated and inflexible' mean?

    me, i'm thoroughly working class, living in a semi-rural area (which just happens to be the same as most areas), doing all the dirty and dangerous jobs that a lot people think no longer exist and reaping the shortened lifespan that comes with that, and i hold to views of class and gender that urbanites and city-dwellers, disconnected from reality as they are, would find ghastly.
    mostly, i don't consider urban adult males to be men - i view them as women or as boys. a man is something you become, it's not an accident of birth.

    so, you can see the cultural difference, immediately, and this only widens when talking in terms of things being 'outdated', since you would most likely only be talking about things which you think no longer exist, but actually do. this also gives rise to the question of, whose views should be at the fore?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade View Post
    mostly, i don't consider urban adult males to be men - i view them as women or as boys. a man is something you become, it's not an accident of birth.
    So, just to be clear, I'm not a man. And this is because when I go to work my primary tool is my mind and a computer, not a shovel or a pick? Or is it because I live in a urban area and don't live in the country?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    Certainly, data shows that men, working in the same job market as women, receive more pay, by 30 percent if my memory serves me.
    Not quite. As of last statistics, it was something like women make 74 cents for every dollar a man makes. This number isn't quite accurate, though. It isn't per job, it is just pure male to female. It doesn't take into account that A LOT of jobs that yield a high risk of death or otherwise extreme danger (compensated by fairly good pay) are made up almost entirely of men, and that the sorts of jobs most women take (teachers, day-care workers, secretaries, etc.) don't pay as well. It also doesn't take into account that men are more likely to work over-time, thus have more money "earned", and women are more likely to take time off or only work part-time.

    When all these kinds of factors are taken into account, there isn't really much of a gap. It's more like 97 cents to every dollar. I'm not going to deny that there are some fair reasons why women work fewer hours (e.g. if a kid gets sick, society generally expects that the mother take time off, not the father), but that doesn't change that this is a skewed statistic.

    More broadly on the topic:

    I believe there are some issues that men face that involve discrimination. Ask pretty much any guy that wants a job working directly with kids. My parents (including my mom, who is very liberal about everything) said she would refuse to allow a male to babysit her kids long term (such as a nanny), even if they were absolutely perfect in every way, including references. It came up after an episode of Friends that really shows how ingrained this bias is. When they try to give the girl-equivalent (a job that only a guy can do), the only thing they could think of was like "penis model?".

    Yes, I'm aware that there are a ton of jobs women don't get because men will only hire other men for those jobs, but they wouldn't publicly admit that they don't hire girls, whereas a male nanny is instantly considered a pedophile by a lot of people. The jobs women don't get now I firmly believe they will get in the near-to-mid-future. I truly believe that the only reason upper-management is almost exclusively men right now is because the guys in charge of hiring THEM were raised in a time where men WERE considered superior, but the more recent generations were, for the most part, raised to look at the quality of a person's work, not insignificant attributes like gender or race.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade
    could you explain your views more? like, what does 'outdated and inflexible' mean?
    An outdated masculine role to me is one that causes more destruction to men more than good. An inflexible is close to being the same thing, but wishes to hold onto that old masculine role as something to be preserved, and thus cannot change for any good that may come of it.

    You make an interesting point on some long held masculine beliefs. As you have said, you live in a rural area where hard, dangerous, and manual labor is the key to being a proper male and "urban males" with their cushy jobs, are not. However, even though both camps may make distinction on terms of the type of labor, both groups measure by success and bread winning capabilities.

    So a father cannot be a stay at home dad without some sort of gender role strain, and or conflict since they are not being a "working class male." In that light, I can find that particular gender role to be limiting, and even destructive, when being a stay at home dad is necessary.
    Last edited by Geno; 13-Aug-2012 at 16:21.

  8. #8
    Astra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    Most of my research has come from this site's links to research: Welcome to XY online | www.xyonline.net
    XYonline is a feminist site that uses crackpot terms like "rape culture." Learning about MRAs from them is like asking the Catholic Church what they think of Galileo.

    If you want to know more about MRAs, you should read them in their own words. I'm sure there are tons of sites out there. That XY site and its links are not a good place to start.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astra View Post
    XYonline is a feminist site that uses crackpot terms like "rape culture." Learning about MRAs from them is like asking the Catholic Church what they think of Galileo.

    If you want to know more about MRAs, you should read them in their own words. I'm sure there are tons of sites out there. That XY site and its links are not a good place to start.
    As I stated, they have links to peer-reviewed research without me having to go through my databases. To rectify, Feminism itself isn't out to throw men under the bus. I've never understood that odd fear MRA's have. So what of the many males that write for said site? Are they the "beta's" the alpha MRA's speak of?

    I have gleaned various MRA blogs for a while now (notably a "Voiceformen"), but most are collections on rantings that feminism as a whole and women are actually being violent and oppressive either at the same level, or more, than men currently (which are false claims)

    Donald Dutton (men's gender researcher) is probably the only MRA that actually tends to make sense, even if its in the misfocused direction the "movement" is heading in.

    Even then, Dutton in his work shows there isn't a gender symmetry in most issues, most prominently domestic violence which MRA's are so vehement men are victims to the same degree of, or more than women (including instances of rape).

    Here's what I think where MRA's should focusing, and a good example: Tony Porter: A call to men | Video on TED.com
    Last edited by Geno; 13-Aug-2012 at 20:53.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ade View Post
    . . . I hold to views of class and gender that urbanites and city-dwellers, disconnected from reality as they are, would find ghastly.
    Mostly, I don't consider urban adult males to be men - I view them as women or as boys. A man is something you become, it's not an accident of birth.
    I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you're not trolling.

    After having read your post, I can't see any cultural differences. I can see an irrational bias against white-collar workers, non-rural residents, and academia, coupled with strongly conservative biases. Case in point, you fling the terms boy and woman around as if they're inherently derogatory.

    I can agree that it takes more than age and secondary characteristics to make a man. It also takes a level maturity that seems lacking in your case. And being a man is in no way better or worse then being a woman; being an ADULT is inherently more respectable than being a overgrown child. An adult, regardless of gender, takes responsibility for the consequences of her actions, actively works to meet his obligations.

    You call me a boy because I live in city and my daily routine doesn't entail hazardous duty, and when it does I'm careful and intelligent enough to mitigate those risks. Fair enough, I call you a fool and bigot for seeing women as less than men, for being incapable of seeing beyond your own immediate environs, and for never examining your assumptions and prejudices.

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