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Thread: Just had an epiphany.

  1. #1
    CrinklySiren

    Default Just had an epiphany.

    Why do people insist on talking about Religion or Politics when in the end its just going to make everyone angry and dumber, AND no matter WHAT The debate is about it NEVER ends because NEITHER side is ever willing to back down or admit defeat or even CONSIDER that they might be wrong. I have yet to see a debate about religion or politics that doesnt end with someone just getting tired of replying, Why cant we agree to disagree???? OR better yet what is SO BAD about just admitting that you are wrong???

    Its like I have this friend who is a hardcore republican, and he literally spends his LIFE trying to find logical reasons for the crazy shit that republicans do sometimes, I mean sometimes I think he is literally a psycho because he sees NOTHING wrong in ANYTHING republicans do. Now im not saying that democrats are saints, but as a democrat, if a republican came along that I could get behind, then I would do just that! I would support them based on their views and the fact that they are republican will not matter at all, I mean hell i was behind Ron Paul until I heard some things I didnt agree with, then I weighed my options and decided I agree with Obama more than Romney, but if Romney werent inconsistent and made a bit of sense every now and then I would get behind him.

    But I digress, another example. I have a friend who is constantly trying to show me and my wife the "word of god" and me and my wife are hardcore atheists, to us religion is as about as real as santa claus and seeing people put so much energy into it makes it look like.... well seeing a 50 year old strongly believe in santa claus.. Not to insult anyone but thats just how me and my wife feel. My point is that people INSIST on trying to make us "see the light" when we are not even interested in the slightest of being involved in such a conversation, let alone "finding god".

    So back to my original question: WHY even have a debate or an argument or a conversation about religion or politics when in the end no one is going to say something as simple and as neutral as "you may have a point."

    Do we as humans ENJOY fighting?? I for one find a great deal of happiness when someone tells me that they agree with me. In turn I also find that same amount of happiness when I learn something NEW that is in fact true, I am not ashamed of saying "oh i didnt know that, I guess I was wrong" so if I can admit to being wrong why cant 80% of the world, and with that I repeat if they CANT come to an agreement, why even start it to begin with??????

    Im sorry for the long post but this has been bothering me for MONTHS because its all people ever talk about, politics or religion.

    So I guess my original question is Why do we SO enjoy fighting?!

  2. #2

    Default

    I avoid the topics like the plague myself, because I know I'll just get riled up...

    As for others, sometimes it starts up innocently enough when people actually legitimately want an opinion. Of course opinions vary greatly... And, when people disagree... Well, things like this happen:


    Eventually, someone makes a remark that offends another, and thus... Flamewars.

  3. #3
    CrinklySiren

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by thingywhat View Post
    I avoid the topics like the plague myself, because I know I'll just get riled up...

    As for others, sometimes it starts up innocently enough when people actually legitimately want an opinion. Of course opinions vary greatly... And, when people disagree... Well, things like this happen:


    Eventually, someone makes a remark that offends another, and thus... Flamewars.
    LMAO that picture is great!!! and your avatar is lovely too XD

    But yeah you have a point, sometimes its hard to avoid though, especially when its happening amongst your friends -_- because sadly enough you might end up not being friends with that person anymore due to their unwillingness to admit being wrong or to just "agree to disagree", I always say that whenever I cant reason with someone and whenever they fail to tell me something factual, but sometimes they just poke and poke and poke until I explode and become Mr.Hyde and all the niceties go away -_- ... and then IM the asshole.

  4. #4

    Default

    Humans, like pretty much every other living thing, are programmed to pass on their genetic material. Often, this means competing with other humans, other species, or the just the environment for sustenance, space, and mates. Sometimes, this requires beating the crap out of or even killing the competitor(s).

    For whatever evolutionary reason, in mammals, the crap beating has fallen mostly to the testosterone-laced male of the species. Contact sports and verbal arguments over goofy things can serve as a surrogate for a crap beating.

    We're also somewhat social/tribal creatures, so we do have a tendency to cooperate. This tendency to cooperate is more easily overwhelmed and forgotten when you're dealing some worthless piece of genetic material that's not in your tribe, like a godless liberal pinko.

    <Note to those of you who are Aspy's - this was typed with tongue firmly planted in cheek - I don't advocate beating the crap out of godless liberal pinko's>

  5. #5

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    Ohhhhhh I hate some people! I had an argument/debate at the pub once when introduced to this guy who claimed to be a communist, what he actually was is a thick opinionated student who thought he was the answer to all the worlds problems spouting rubbish he read off the back cover of philosophy books, so I had great fun posing him with questions and listening to his simplistic answers.
    I should point out I try not to act like a dick myself, but I do try to keep upto date on all sorts of subject so when I say I admit I am an opinionated person aswell I mean in the sence I have an opinion on most things i read about and if your opinion is different I'm willing to listen to your argument as you may have information I don't, however the second it decends to telling me I'm wrong because I just am you lose all relevance and I let rip especially when it's on a touchy subject like civil rights, crime and punishment and tax. Plus it's a wonderful way to exise your anger every now and then, so beware!

  6. #6
    CrinklySiren

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    like a godless liberal pinko.
    What is a pinko? What is an Aspy?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ObsoleteBaby View Post
    What is a pinko? What is an Aspy?
    pinko = leftist, liberal, someone who thinks like a Communist but is afraid to admit they are.

    Aspy = someone with Asperger Syndrome. They tend to take everything literally and have difficulty recognizing sarcasm, humor, or metaphors. We have a significant number of Aspy members/contributors here. I was being careful to alert them that I wasn't being totally serious with my post.

  8. #8

    Default

    I usually avoid such topics I might tell you who I am supporting if you ask but most likely my answer will be that I don't feel comfortable in talking about that. I know a little about the religious debates that happen I don't why people can't just let alone after the first or second try and realize you are not going to change for them and just live with in the confines of statutes of their God/Gods/deities instead of pushing so hard, I know a little christian doctrines and most basically say convert all you can but the part people forgot is most have a clauses in their that convert must be willing to come on their own and that they cannot be forced into it. That though is just the tip of an iceberg and as this rather hot button I don't want to get into any further, than I have, My views are very possibly wrong on doctrine as it is open for interpretation, they are based off of what I have read and my individual experiences, so no I don't see why we should conflict over these issues, but we do for some reason.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    pinko = leftist, liberal, someone who thinks like a Communist but is afraid to admit they are.

    Aspy = someone with Asperger Syndrome. They tend to take everything literally and have difficulty recognizing sarcasm, humor, or metaphors
    I thought is what you meant by Aspy being an an individual with Asperger's syndrome my self myself but I did not want to assume. Thankyou for the clarification in this post and your last post as well as up until that point in the sentence in your first post I was wondering what may be going on.

  9. #9

    Default

    My outlook on life totally differs from the viewpoint of the thread creator. For one, to disagree or alternatively in a less emotionally sounding phrase "to debate", is one of the things that makes us human, and I treasure it. You say that your idea of happiness is to be agreed with all the time. To have that constantly without change, without your morality being checked, without large group efforts with multiple opinions on the same subject, without progress through scientific debate, without progress through cultural debate it would create a vast emptiness in the human condition that would shake the very foundations of what humanity is.

    First of all one of the only ways that we progress scientifically, culturally and spiritually as a species is by debating with each other. Without this we would have no civilisation, there would no art, no music, no religion, we'd have no technology whatsoever (forget modern technology completely!) and we would appear as a very simple species much like our pre hunter-gatherer ancestors would have appeared. I would imagine that, our early primitive "first" language that would not evolve past much more than the initial grunts and weird animal noises. If all early humans agreed with each other, why bother to disagree and suggest a change to something?

    An original idea is a wonderful thing, but truly rare. Advances in humanity spawned through discussion and debate surrounding an original idea is much more common place, but just as fundamental! Take the iPhone for example. It is more than just the fondleslab it appears to be at face value. It is the culmination of hundreds of years worth of technological advances made through scientific communities challenging each other, debating the finer points of science, creating technologies in a collaborative effort, all this not just through cooperation but through debate as well.

    But this isn't just about progress either. Infinite opinions breed infinite diversity, which in turn makes life interesting, quirky and spontaneous! But also, at the same time this diversity produces people that will frustrate other people, and vice versa so you will always get clashes. The term "you have to take the good with the bad" applies here I think, and so does "and all colours of the rainbow in between".

    As a species, we are making progress. We will eventually learn from the mistakes in the past, we are not in the same condition as we were 100 years ago, and life will very different go forward 100 years. I like to think that eventually humanity will reach a point of equilibrium, where everyone can live in relative harmony with each other. People will still disagree of course. What you need in order to create this, is a limit on population density on planet earth, a relatively unlimited source of energy, constructive and efficient use of the worlds resources, and a highly developed automated technology production line to cater to our every whim. As you can imagine this is far off in the future, but I do believe it is in our future. The reason I have hope in this future is because of our ability to disagree and debate with each other and make progress out of this. Eventually we'll get it right, we may have wiped out 99% of earth's population five times by then, but we'll learn from our mistakes and get there eventually.

    So as hopefully you can see and agree with me by now original poster, it is very important that we all make our opinions heard, that we push each other's boundaries. It is our choice to join in the story of humanity's past, present and future through discourse, or choose to remain silent. I most definitely choose to speak clearly, and with passion.

  10. #10

    Smile



    Quote Originally Posted by 1ObsoleteBaby View Post
    WHY even have a debate or an argument or a conversation about religion or politics when in the end no one is going to say something as simple and as neutral as "you may have a point."
    Wellll... call me naive, but I always thought that the point of an argument was to identify unjustly-held fallacies and reach some kind of logical agreement. And it has always perplexed and surprised me how this almost never happens.

    I really upset CJtheCat (sorry CJ!) on the God thread because... well... I think I struggle to understand how different people have different ways of thinking. When I engage in an argument, I try to detach myself from any emotion and talk as clearly and logically as I can. And I think that, in trying to be precise and succinct and find exactly the right word, perhaps I sometimes come across as pretentious and cold and blunt... maybe rude... (I honestly don't know -- I certainly don't mean to come across like that). Until the other day, I hadn't thought at all about how people might see my arguing style.

    And because I detach myself emotionally from a logical argument, I don't (or didn't) see a problem in attacking an argument quite forcefully. To me, the discussion is just a logical game to play, and being forceful or provocative in a discussion is just a cheeky & playful bit of fun... Sometimes I choose words very stupidly, to make the most impact, because I feel like someone is missing the point and I assume I just need to explain it in more direct terms... which I think some people might find disrespectful or aggressive... maybe... And when people get annoyed they bite back and insult me instead of my argument, which I see as completely unjustified and then I suddenly switch from being emotionally detached and trying to have a rational argument to being overwhelmed with a mixture of rage and shame... I really try not to react outwardly, but inwardly I feel like a two-year-old having a temper tantrum...


    The thing is, I probably lack emotional intelligence. I mean... I've been seeing a shrink for six months and he said, "Despite me asking numerous times how you feel, you never tell me. You describe the way you feel by listing the things you did (e.g. I feel like going for a walk, I feel like punching that bloke in the face, I feel like retreating into my inner world, etc.) So... I don't know... How am I supposed to know how I feel? I don't get it.

    Anyway, another thing I don't understand (and Calico highlighted brilliantly on another thread) is how people "read between the lines" all the time. Instead of reading precisely what I've written (and more importantly, applied exactly the same linguistic definitions that I do), people tend to read a post and form an overall impression of what I'm saying. My shrink says that effectively they think, "Oh, I see what he means. He said X, but the point he's trying to make is Y." Which doesn't make sense to me (I tend to take people very literally without thinking about what they might have actually meant... I don't understand why people say things when they mean something different! And anyway, I presume I "read behind the lines" too and "get the wrong end of the stick" sometimes.

    If I know what I mean, I find it hard to accept that others could possibly misunderstand me, or that I'm not eloquent enough to make them understand in the way that I do...

    What really infuriates me is when someone asks a question and, like a politician, someone answers a different question altogether or answers half the question in a way that doesn't make logical sense and then ignores the crux of the argument. Because of this, I cannot bear to read/watch the news or any political debate. I just get so angry at the lack of respect for rigorous and formalised debate. Even the supposedly high-brow media has been infantilised beyond belief...



    Quote Originally Posted by 1ObsoleteBaby View Post
    Do we as humans ENJOY fighting?? I for one find a great deal of happiness when someone tells me that they agree with me. In turn I also find that same amount of happiness when I learn something NEW that is in fact true, I am not ashamed of saying "oh i didnt know that, I guess I was wrong" so if I can admit to being wrong why cant 80% of the world, and with that I repeat if they CANT come to an agreement, why even start it to begin with??????
    I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees a real "argument" as being an inherently good and positive thing (when it expands your mind and no one gets upset)! I put a huge value on truth and in trying to see reality like it really is, no matter how unpleasant or disturbing. And if I believe in a delusion, I damned well want to know about it! I want people to challenge me (in the politest possible way, of course).

    So I think some people (like me) absolutely crave certainty and truth. I may think that I'm right about something, but even acknowledging that someone else might have a different opinion really unsettles me. It's as if there is an objective reality that we all agree on, and suddenly there are two possible realities depending who you believe. Which reality is right?! I MUST KNOW!!! My world just falls apart and I can't let it rest until we reach an agreement. I don't care whether I convince you to believe me, vice versa, or we both change our views and reach a compromise. But the fact that someone thinks I'm wrong terrifies me. This is an intelligent person I'm talking to. What if I am wrong?!

    I'm only thinking about this now... but mayyyyybe this comes across as trying to ram my opinion down someone else's throat. Jeeez... that's a horrible and shameful thought...

    I think some people dislike conflict at all, and so when someone says, "I don't think you're right and here's why", they translate that into, "If this person thinks I'm wrong and they're right, they must think that they're cleverer than me." And then, if they're aggressive, they want to "hurt" the person who insulted them in the same way that they were "hurt" by the perceived insult. Or, if they're less confident, want to "save face", and pretend that they agreed with the other person all along and they've been misunderstood!

    My shrink recently taught me about Freudian projection, so maybe this kind of approach is a self-defence mechanism where the person experiencing it doesn't even know what they're doing. (By god, does that idea make my head spin!)

    Other people like a good debate, but mistake a rejection of their beliefs with a rejection of them. I find this the hardest to understand.

    And then some will misunderstand you, not because they don't understand or because they're misinterpreting you, but simply because their world view is different. It's like the difference between a computer system built around an Intel 8086 CPU and one using a SPARC MB86900. There's just no way you can get load same bit of code onto both and expect to get the same interpretation... Bad analogy maybe...

    Finally, humans have evolved to be social animals. Evolution hasn't cottoned on to telecommunications, so by communicating in writing, we're really handicapping ourselves by shutting down most of the channels of communication that we have evolved to use: facial expression, gestures, intonation, etc. Is it any wonder we misunderstand each other and no doubt offend each other without meaning to?

    Anyway, even when people do get upset, sometimes something good can come out of it. The debate where I upset CJtheCat has helped me realise how different people are, and how I shouldn't expect or assume that everyone sees the world exactly as I do... Sigh... At least... that's what my shrink thinks and I'm really trying to take it on board...

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