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Thread: Are sissies sexist?

  1. #1

    Default Are sissies sexist?

    This is a question I've been thinking about for a while, and something which I'd like to write about in some depth. I'm posting here because I want to get a feel for what the sissies on the forum, as well as regular members, think about the issues.

    If you are attracted to humiliation, degradation and submission, it makes sense that you may be into something like... puppy play, where the submissive partner plays the role of a puppy, and his/her master trains/controls them. This makes sense because a puppy is below the level of a human. If I treat you like you are a dog, I am degrading you, I am treating you as being beneath what you really are.

    The same can be said for some adult babies. If I dress you in a nappy, and treat you like a baby, somebody with a fetish for humiliation may like this. A baby is a low status human, and by reducing you to that level once again I degrade you.

    Things get interesting when I force you to cross-dress. There is little that is degrading about forcing a woman into man's clothes, but the reverse gets a big reaction!
    Sissies don't just wear female clothes, they wear fantastical, over exaggerated feminine clothing. And as something turned on by humiliation and degradation, I can't help but think this is because a woman is still viewed in our society as being lower status to a man. A man is degraded when he is made to dress like a female, because such behaviour is beneath him.

    Obviously being a sissy doesn't mean you actually believe that men are above women, but I think it's reflective of society's entrenched view on the matter. I recall watching a documentary about BDSM, and one man featured was a Jewish man who felt very aroused by the idea of being dominated by a Nazi and treated as sub-human. I think it's fair to say that this man did not actually believe that Nazis are better than Jews, sexuality isn't really tied to rationality.

    But I think all this raises a moral question: by taking part in being a sissy, are we passively allowing ourselves to indulge in sexism? Should we be resisting sissiness, or should we at least be feeling a little uncomfortable?
    Should the Jewish man be taking sexual gratification from what was an horrendous period in history?

    I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on tall this.

    Please note that I don't wish to actually make anybody feel guilty about their sexual desires. I am of course of the view that any sexual behaviour that is safe, sane and consensual is perfectly fine. And if you find Nazis sexy I don't judge you at all. What I'm driving at is that there seems to be some... philosophical problems with being a sissy. This is a mature topic where we do not debate to to swing people's opinions or defend sexual desires, instead I want to try to get to the bottom of what the source of enjoyment for being a sissy is, and what role sexism has in it all.


  2. #2

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    Ermmm....
    I'm extremely radical as a feminist. I would get yelled at for saying some of this stuff, so bear with me.
    Gender isn't real. Gender is an illusion created by the patriarchy/society when they still thought that people with penises and vaginas were different. (I also think divisions of biological sex are a bit arbitrary but that's a huge other discussion).
    Transgender people inherently play into the perpetuation of gender by saying they're born that way (no one is born any way. We're all people and all of the choices to express yourself as who you feel you are and who you choose to sleep with are either choices or not choices because you didn't realize what sort of choices you had so no one should be shamed for it.)
    So... gender isn't real. But since gender is sooo real for people because we've made it real, then we really can't fault anyone for finding their natural inclinations towards feminine things. It's just that gender and sex are still conflated in the transgender community even though a lot of people have tried to fight it. (I mean, really. Most trans women are more valid with their gender idenity as women since they chose it and it's their experience and gender isn't real for me and is a form of self expression. I just dress feminine and am a identify as a woman as a form of patriarchal bargaining.
    I think as long as you look at it as not being associated with women and realize that the traditionally feminine things can hold value, then you're not hurting anyone. A sissy is being... more genderist than sexist if that makes sense. (I don't know if that's a word. But it more aptly captures it.) And it's not even really that...

    So uhhh... basically I curl my hair, shave my legs, dye the freaking daylights out of my hair pouring chemicals onto my head, wear layers of make up and chemicals, wear high heels that could cause foot alignment, and diet. Some people would call that being a bad feminist and perpetuating gender and biological essentialism. They'd be right- but there's nothing wrong with it. It's patriarchal bargaining to fit in with society.

    Recognize the inherent issues, realize they're there, and that treating people that identify as women- or anyone for that matter- in real life is wrong, but that it turns you on.

    There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, there's sexism in bdsm between men and women (or at least genderism...) But that's not inherently hurting anyone as long as both people know what's going on and are okay with playing with that. There's something subversive about saying "heh, we know this is wrong but we're toying with it anyway."

    Sissies used to bother me, I'd admit it, but a different understanding helped a lot. People can't be "OMG SUPER IDEAL PERFECT HUMAN BEINGS FOREVER WITH NO HYPOCRISY." ... So uhh, you're fine.

    Heck, the way I girlify the heck out of myself, if I had been born with a penis, I'd be in the exact same category as far as ABDL goes.

    Basically showing sensitivity and being aware excuses a lot. We all know we don't live in an ideal world, and sexism is still surrounding us.

    Sissies aren't immmoral.

  3. #3

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    DEFINITION:
    sissy
    Noun:
    derogatory. A person regarded as effeminate or cowardly.
    Adjective:
    derogatory. Feeble and cowardly.

    It doesn't regard to a particular sex, so you could be a sissy girl, or you could be a sissy boy.
    It's when you say girls are sissies, or boys are sissy's is when it becomes sexist, due to the fact that you are saying the group as a whole is a sissy?
    Make sense?

  4. #4
    littlepacifiergirl

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    It's an interesting theory you have proposed but many people don't see the need to necessarily be submissive and be a sissy (many do though, I don't necessarily). Certainly I think cultural values do have a lot do with it. If you took a random survey today I'd bet you would find at least 1000%+ more people saying they are a sissy today then you would in say 1950. I don't routinely do this (not my cup of tea) but I've browsed various sites and I think that older sissy art work generally reflects a lot more of the roles of "submissive and domination" then present artwork which expresses more cuteness and girlishness. If I had to give one reason why I like being a sissy it's this: Who wouldn't want to be cute? And to that end I think others will probably agree here.

    If there are older sissies out there it would definitely be interesting if you could post how you think sissieness has changed as cultural values have!, I'd be very interested in reading that.

  5. #5

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    I don't view it as sexist. It may play on poor stereotypes, but what doesn't. Boys, at least were I grew up, were taught that "real men" didn't wear/like pink and it should be humiliating to wear anything pink, frilly or girly. Also another explanation for humiliation play is (and I can't remember where I heard it) "Forcing people to do something they've always secretly wanted to do."

  6. #6

    Lightbulb



    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie F View Post
    I can't help but think this is because a woman is still viewed in our society as being lower status to a man. A man is degraded when he is made to dress like a female, because such behaviour is beneath him.
    Just to play devil's advocate... Is it that society sees a woman as "beneath" a man, or does society see men and women as equal, with men-that-act-as-women as lower in status? (I don't know the answer...)



    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie F View Post
    Should the Jewish man be taking sexual gratification from what was an horrendous period in history?

    ...

    I am of course of the view that any sexual behaviour that is safe, sane and consensual is perfectly fine.
    I think you've answered your own question there! I agree with you completely.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie F View Post
    What I'm driving at is that there seems to be some... philosophical problems with being a sissy.
    Being a sissy is... a fantasy state. You don't have to apply the same philosophical considerations to a fantasy as you would to real life. Most people would be fine with a consenting adult couple playing "doctors and nurses" in the bedroom. No one would ask whether it was ethical that a man with no medical degree should pretend to be a doctor and administer an enema without a good medical reason. In the same way, I don't think you can read too much into a Nazi fantasy or a sissy one, or any other.

    Rather than sissies being "sexist" and seeing women beneath men (or thinking that that's how society sees women), could it be that women are seen as the "fairer" sex and in need of more protection and care than men... which certainly sounds like an appealing mindset when you know that society is really telling you that you have to be strong, be able to fight, show no emotion, never cry, etc.?

  7. #7

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    I don't think the fact that you have "sissy" as part of your sexual orientation makes you a sexist, but I do think that "sissy-ism" is the product of a sexist culture, one that has a negative conception of femininity (both in the "bad" and "not-" as in "not-male" sense) and looks very harshly on men expressing femininity.
    If we lived in a culture that had placed an equal value (as far as that was possible) on what we call "masculinity" and "femininity" and was relaxed and accepting of men and women expressing whatever combination of these, then there probably wouldn't be sissies. Therefore I back littlepacifiergirl's idea that sissy culture changes over time along with wider cultures ideas about men and women.

    Are sissies sexist? Well, some of them probably are, both in their sissy-ism and everyday lives. It's very hard to judge what the men who create sissy culture *genuinely* think about women, from sissy culture itself. In sissy culture works, women are portrayed as being man-haters and having contempt for all things feminine, "sissies are not real men" there is no such thing as a transsexual - only "she-males", primary measure of a man is the size of his cock, ect...
    I have no doubt that there are sissies who understand this is all non-sense for a bit of fun, and there are some sissies who really do have a low opinion of women and femininity - and some others who LOVE the idea of being a weak, frilly, traditional stereotype of a girly girl woman and can't understand why women a) might not want to be like that and b) would find the idea that sissies think that way offensive.... what the balance of numbers is between the categories is I don't know.

    Although I have the label "sissy" on my profile, I'm not a true sissy, because I'm not into humiliation, and actually I'm much more of an LG and a "crossdreamer": I have fantasies about being a rather tomboyish/ masculine toddler girl (in LG mode) / woman (in crossdreamer mode.) I don't feel humiliated by sissy activities or being seen as a girl, in fact just the opposite - I feel more comfortable, confident and happy. That's because I have straight (no ice, no lemon)
    Dysphoria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and "Existence Identity Disorder": I'm not trapped in the wrong body, I'm trapped in the wrong life, and the equivalent of transition for me would be to wake up and never have existed.

    ---------- Post added at 00:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:29 ----------



    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    Rather than sissies being "sexist" and seeing women beneath men (or thinking that that's how society sees women), could it be that women are seen as the "fairer" sex and in need of more protection and care than men... which certainly sounds like an appealing mindset when you know that society is really telling you that you have to be strong, be able to fight, show no emotion, never cry, etc.?
    I know you said you're being devils advocate so I'm not out to get you with this post but...

    Does being the "fair sex", that constantly needs to protected and cared for by others because they are weak and can't fight, and therefore unable to do it themselves, are over-emotional and blubbing all the time ect. REALLY sound like it's being held in high esteem? or is that just a stifling idealisation?
    ;-)

    "The girl of my dreams, I am putting on a pedestal, so that I can do nasty, nasty things to her..." - Bill Hicks

  8. #8

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by riddle View Post
    Does being the "fair sex", that constantly needs to protected and cared for by others because they are weak and can't fight, and therefore unable to do it themselves, are over-emotional and blubbing all the time ect. REALLY sound like it's being held in high esteem? or is that just a stifling idealisation?
    ;-)
    Ha ha - fair point! I was thinking more in terms of such social stereotypes being an innocent (but outdated) hunter/gatherer division of labour mentality. When death was common and women would have more children, it would make sense for men to do the physically demanding (and potentially life-threatening) tasks, whilst women (who may be pregnant, trying to conceive, or caring for infants) were treated as the "fairer sex" in the best interests of improving fertility and maximising the chances of having healthy offspring.

    I'm not a sissy, so I don't know (and I'm not sure a sissy would know!) whether their interest was sparked by the way that women are subjugated by society or by the caring instincts that are more likely to be displayed towards them...

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    Ha ha - fair point! I was thinking more in terms of such social stereotypes being an innocent (but outdated) hunter/gatherer division of labour mentality. When death was common and women would have more children, it would make sense for men to do the physically demanding (and potentially life-threatening) tasks, whilst women (who may be pregnant, trying to conceive, or caring for infants) were treated as the "fairer sex" in the best interests of improving fertility and maximising the chances of having healthy offspring.
    Actually the whole "fairer sex" thing is more about Courtly love - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and a romantic idea of Chivalry than a Hunter/Gatherer one.
    (Interestingly according to wikipeida some scholars see the chivalric ideal of a knight submitting to the service of a lady he loves along with the protection of womankind in general as being a Medieval expression of something on the BDSM spectrum...)



    I'm not a sissy, so I don't know (and I'm not sure a sissy would know!) whether their interest was sparked by the way that women are subjugated by society or by the caring instincts that are more likely to be displayed towards them...
    You hit on an interesting point with the point about "caring instincts that are more likely to be displayed towards them" - there seems to be almost none of that present in sissy culture. Although many AB's enjoy the idea of being accepted and loved "as a baby", if you read sissy-culture stories, cappies ect. the "dominant" or "carers" of the sissy are very rarely loving and accepting, or treating them as a genuinely female person. Women AB's and Dominants on the other hand (and here my view of things is a lot more impressionistic, because I lack inside knowledge) often seem to get of on the idea of being idolised as a baby girl "the apple of her father's eye" / worshipped as a goddess (or perhaps this is just a part they play for men who want an object of worship?)

  10. #10

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate... Is it that society sees a woman as "beneath" a man, or does society see men and women as equal, with men-that-act-as-women as lower in status? (I don't know the answer...)



    I think you've answered your own question there! I agree with you completely.



    Being a sissy is... a fantasy state. You don't have to apply the same philosophical considerations to a fantasy as you would to real life. Most people would be fine with a consenting adult couple playing "doctors and nurses" in the bedroom. No one would ask whether it was ethical that a man with no medical degree should pretend to be a doctor and administer an enema without a good medical reason. In the same way, I don't think you can read too much into a Nazi fantasy or a sissy one, or any other.

    Rather than sissies being "sexist" and seeing women beneath men (or thinking that that's how society sees women), could it be that women are seen as the "fairer" sex and in need of more protection and care than men... which certainly sounds like an appealing mindset when you know that society is really telling you that you have to be strong, be able to fight, show no emotion, never cry, etc.?

    It's all the same thing. Basically the idea people have of gender and sex being the same thing is awful and association with the gender of woman is considered the worst possible thing for any human being, except people that happen to have vaginas are told that they must be that gender no matter what.

    It's perfectly valid to like the characteristics of gender, but gender isn't really real. It's a social construct and social role. Any anthropologist will tell you that. And society really does see women (in terms of both gender identity and sex) as beneath men.... I mean, women are paid 80 cents per every dollar men are. They occupy less CEO and rich type positions. (sure, some have those positions, but employment is one thing.) Fat women are paid significantly less than fat men. Girls starve themselves to be the thin ideal because their life isn't considered as valuable if they aren't pretty. Sexism is reallly real.

    Gender hurts everyone and yes, it does sound appealing to be cared for and not have to fight or show emotion or cry- but there's inherently less control over yourself when people don't take people as seriously because of gender. Men should be able to be cared for... Men are the same as women and this is why it's hurting everyone to reinforce sexism, even by playing it light and saying that it's just that women are seen as the "fairer" sex. That's not useful to anyone and only causes harm...And is hurting most AB men as well, because being wanting to be taken care of is seen as wrong, and that's not right either.

    Edited to add: Again, being a sissy is perfectly fine. o.o

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