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Thread: H.S.T. Harmonized Sales Tax

  1. #1

    Default H.S.T. Harmonized Sales Tax

    Well this is in now for us Canadians and I'm not too happy about it. Already costing me a lot more.

    Got this in an email...

    At first I thought this was funny....Then I realized the awful truth of it.



    Be sure to read all the way to the end!

    Tax his land,
    Tax his bed,
    Tax the table
    At which he's fed.

    Tax his work,
    Tax his pay,
    He works for peanuts
    Anyway!

    Tax his cow,
    Tax his goat,
    Tax his pants,
    Tax his coat.

    Tax his tobacco,
    Tax his drink,
    Tax him if he
    Tries to think.

    Tax his car,
    Tax his gas,
    Find other ways
    To tax his ass.

    Tax all he has
    Then let him know
    That you won't be done
    Till he has no dough.

    When he screams and hollers;
    Then tax him some more,
    Tax him till
    He's good and sore.

    Then tax his coffin,
    Tax his grave,
    Tax the sod in
    Which he's laid.

    When he's gone,
    Do not relax,
    Itís time to apply
    The inheritance tax.

    Accounts Receivable Tax
    Airline surcharge tax
    Airline Fuel Tax
    Airport Maintenance Tax
    Building Permit Tax
    Cigarette Tax
    Corporate Income Tax
    Death Tax
    Dog License Tax
    Driving Permit Tax
    Environmental Tax (Fee)
    Excise Taxes
    Federal Income Tax
    Federal Unemployment (UI)
    Fishing License Tax
    Food License Tax
    Gasoline Tax (too much per litre)
    Gross Receipts Tax
    Health Tax
    Hunting License Tax
    Hydro Tax
    Inheritance Tax
    Interest Tax
    Liquor Tax
    Luxury Taxes
    Marriage License Tax
    Medicare Tax
    Mortgage Tax
    Personal Income Tax
    Property Tax
    Poverty Tax
    Prescription Drug Tax
    Provincial Income and sales tax
    Real Estate Tax
    Recreational Vehicle Tax
    Retail Sales Tax
    Service Charge Tax
    School Tax
    Telephone Federal Tax
    Telephone Federal, Provincial and Local Surcharge Taxes
    Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
    Vehicle License Registration Tax
    Vehicle Sales Tax
    Water Tax
    Watercraft Registration Tax
    Well Permit Tax
    Workers Compensation Tax
    --- and in 2010 the HST

    STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?



    Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was one of the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had a large middle class, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.



    What in "Hell" happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' :fin06:

  2. #2

    Default

    Let me start by throwing out the caveat that, as a not-Canadian, most of what I know about the HST stems from what I've read on Wikipedia and a few articles I Googled up. From what Wikipedia says, the studies and previous examples show that this change is revenue neutral due to other cuts and the fact that by replacing a cascading tax with a value-added tax, you remove a totally inadvertent and detrimental economic incentive, which should be a cause for some economic growth.

    I'd imagine that no one will fault me then for wondering if this outcry is simply people being adverse to seeing an increase upfront in their everyday lives without taking into account savings elsewhere. It also sounds like the proponents of this tax wildly lost the message war; politicians don't tend to vote for things that ultimately have disapproval ratings in the 80%+ range at the time they are enacted, so presumably they had reason to think it was a much better idea than the public reaction would imply.


    At any rate, complaining about the basic act of taxation is silly. Government services are mostly necessary, and many that aren't tend to be safety nets which are anchors in the exact tough times during which politicians start proposing spending cuts. Tax revenue is a necessary evil, plain and simple; aversion to that fact makes it politically unfeasible to almost ever raise them even when it's by far the most sensible option, and incentivizes everyone to promise (and easily enact) tax cuts even when it makes terrible sense.
    Last edited by Fruitkitty; 04-Jul-2010 at 13:55.

  3. #3

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    I don't really care. Obv. it's not going to change, and it hasn't affected me much. Gas went up a penny, whoop-de-do. Besides, I enjoyed my couple hundred dollar check I got in the mail because of it. I'd rather pay taxes and receive things like my health care, schoolage, among other things, then to have a lower (or no) tax and have to pay for that myself.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quite so, and one could add that there have always been taxes. The U. S. separated from England over unfair tax laws. Then George Washington started enacting taxes to pay for the war. Taxes pay for the things that we as individuals couldn't afford but want such as a military, social security, health care, roads, schools. The money has to come from somewhere. Society makes a choice for the common good. Imagine if we were a primitive tribe. We would go out on the hunt and pool that which we killed so that no one would starve to death. The children couldn't hunt, and women did other things. So in a way, we've always had taxes.

  5. #5

    Default

    The biggest problem I have with the taxation system of modern society has more to do with the way we tax the same earned money over and over again.

    If I make 100 dollars and get (in the USA anyway) 23.50 taken out for tax (combined state, fed, and FICA not including the impending health care tax) I have 76.50 left.

    Now, I need food so i go buy a chicken and give the store 5 dollars plus a tax of about 50 cents. This is money I have already been taxed on and a product that was paid for my a company who was taxed and then passed the tax to me. Anyway on the way home I stop by the DMV to register my car and pay the 48 dollars for a 2 dollar stamped plate, I use the services of the DMV worker for 15 minutes so if they make 10 dollars and hour and I use 15 minutes I have cost the GOV. 2 dollars and 50 cents and in the approx say 10 dollars for building cost (electric, water etc etc) total cost 14.50. 48 dollar plate - 14.50 = 33.50 for the government. Extra money in the gov coffers AFTER they already taxed my paycheck supposedly to provide the service i just paid for at the DMV. Applicate that to anything from hunting "licence fee" aka tax to property tax. ALL paid for with money they already taxed before I even got it in my hand.

    SO either we need to tax for services all at once (income tax) or tax based entirely on use. Mileage counters in cars and trucks to pay for roads, Pay as you use fees for plates and permits. Schools paid for my the parents who have children in the school system. About the only thing that would have to remain traditionally taxed would be the the money needed to fund the military since we all benefit but not all have direct use.

  6. #6

    Default

    Welcome to the HST club, where at least we don't pay PST on GST (or is it the other way around?)...

  7. #7

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Near View Post
    Welcome to the HST club, where at least we don't pay PST on GST (or is it the other way around?)...
    HST is just PST + GST. The reason it isn't liked is because certain things were only taxed by one of them, like services (e.g. my dad's company). All his prices just shot up around 7% and he is seeing no profit towards his company.

  8. #8

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by ChildishDaze View Post
    The biggest problem I have with the taxation system of modern society has more to do with the way we tax the same earned money over and over again.

    If I make 100 dollars and get (in the USA anyway) 23.50 taken out for tax (combined state, fed, and FICA not including the impending health care tax) I have 76.50 left.

    Now, I need food so i go buy a chicken and give the store 5 dollars plus a tax of about 50 cents. This is money I have already been taxed on and a product that was paid for my a company who was taxed and then passed the tax to me. Anyway on the way home I stop by the DMV to register my car and pay the 48 dollars for a 2 dollar stamped plate, I use the services of the DMV worker for 15 minutes so if they make 10 dollars and hour and I use 15 minutes I have cost the GOV. 2 dollars and 50 cents and in the approx say 10 dollars for building cost (electric, water etc etc) total cost 14.50. 48 dollar plate - 14.50 = 33.50 for the government. Extra money in the gov coffers AFTER they already taxed my paycheck supposedly to provide the service i just paid for at the DMV. Applicate that to anything from hunting "licence fee" aka tax to property tax. ALL paid for with money they already taxed before I even got it in my hand.

    SO either we need to tax for services all at once (income tax) or tax based entirely on use. Mileage counters in cars and trucks to pay for roads, Pay as you use fees for plates and permits. Schools paid for my the parents who have children in the school system. About the only thing that would have to remain traditionally taxed would be the the money needed to fund the military since we all benefit but not all have direct use.
    NO.

    First of all, you imply that you expect to be subject to the new health care reform surcharge in FICA, which would require you to be in the $250K+ (joint) tax bracket. If so, that fact that you are complaining about the cost of a license plate is silly, and the fact that you have any complaints about the tax system at all considering that your tax rate is lower than under Reagan and a world's difference lower from what it was 50 years ago reflects very poorly on your arithmetic skills (or makes you out as a douchebag-miser who could care less how hard life is for the poor so long as he is taxed .001% less - most people aren't this cruel so the "bad at arithmetic" scenario is more likely).

    There is no intrinsic problem with the fact that the government taxes income, spending, and overcharges for some services. It just means that your effective tax rate is based on all of the above rather than just the tax table in the 1040 instruction manual.

    What does matter is the overall progressiveness or regressiveness of the tax system. If a tax rate increases vs income faster than the marginal utility of money decreases, then it is progressive; otherwise it is regressive. Thus, all flat rate taxes (and flat overcharges for services) are regressive. It's widely viewed that the US strikes a rough balance with a progressive income tax and then many small and almost all regressive taxes, which if true is another argument against your notion that there is something wrong with the many types of taxes imposed.

    The idea that parents with schoolchildren should bear the entire burden for the schools is tantamount to privatizing all education in the country, except run by a government monopoly. Moreover, it means either forcing anyone who cannot afford it not to be able to send their kids to school; any progressive scaling to make it affordable to lower income students means it stops being a flat "use" tax. Since tuition for a public school tends to be between $5-10K per child per year, and schools are used primarily by young families with income earners at the lower end of the pay-scale.....this idea really just gets more and more idiotic the more thought that is given to its real-world implications.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zephiel View Post
    HST is just PST + GST. The reason it isn't liked is because certain things were only taxed by one of them, like services (e.g. my dad's company). All his prices just shot up around 7% and he is seeing no profit towards his company.
    Which is to say that some people don't like it because they get hit by it, which is pretty much what happens with every tax in history ever. The other people whose tax burden declined (if they've realized it) will love the change.

  9. #9
    Peachy

    Default

    First of all, taxes are needed to fund all the government services. That includes the police, shooling, the fire department etc. Do you really want the operator at the emergency phone line ask you for a credit card number before sending out the cops? Or how about each student plug a $50 bill into the gates at school to be let in every day? It's more efficient to just take that money away from your income, and fair too, as people with low income can enjoy policing and schooling for their kids too. The amount of taxes due and the efficiency of how it's spent is debatable, but the general idea of taxation is not.

    Second, I never understood the American sales tax system. Rates would differ from state to state and county to county. For example, clothing in GA was taxed at 7%, in NY at 0% if the item costs $110 and less, in MD at 0% if it's <$175, in DE there's no sales tax at all. In all European countries I've been to, sales tax rates are the same across the country to ensure no stores or companies have a disadvantage in a particular community due to having to charge a higher tax rates. in addition, the tax is always included in the quoted price, so even if there was a difference in sales tax, it wouldn't be so apparent to the customer.

    Finally, most countries here operate on a value-added tax, rather than taxing the product with the full rate and the full value at every step in production. In today's world where most companies only engage in their core business and outsource every other step in production, this is very important. So any product going from manufacturer 1 to manufacturer 2 to wholesaler, to retailer, to mom&pop store to the consumer would be taxed 5 times at the respective price, rather than just taxing the margin (or value) added at each step along the way. If Canada still hasn't changed their system, it's about time they did!

    Peachy

  10. #10

    Default

    I do think it is funny, and let me tell you why. As others have already said, all these taxes go toward making life more livable for the rest of us. It pays for roads, schools, police, regulatory agencies, national defense, arts endowments, federal scholarships and welfare, health care, infrastructure, agriculture, and crisis response.

    Someone said that "taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized country".

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