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Thread: About the Dalai Lama: What is Best for Tibet?

  1. #1

    Default About the Dalai Lama: What is Best for Tibet?



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Might I suggest watching the Ten Questions for the Dalai Lama? His Holiness explains how to find peace in a world filled with violence. There are tragedies beyond comprehension occurring in Tibet, yet the people there remain so positive. Despite the systematic elimination of their culture by the Chinese, they firmly believe in non-violence. Maybe they have realized something about happiness that we have yet to understand. I felt more humble after watching it, because it made my causes of suffering seem trivial.


    Here


    There is good in humanity. It does exist. You just have to know where to find it.
    Um, if you're looking for proof of goodness, the Dali Lama is NOT a good example. 95% of Tibetans are arguably better off under Chinese rule. Under the rule of the Lamas, there was a religious aristocracy that ruled over the remaining 95% with an iron fist. They were property, owned by their Lamas. Sexual slavery was common, as was forced breeding, cutting off of hands and feet, being sold to other Lamas, gouging out of eyes, and execution. There were no legal rights for these serfs. They were chattel, wholly owned by the aristocratic monks. Yes, China is responsible for some pretty big evils over the years. But the only people who have had their quality of life DECREASE in Tibet since 1959 were the landowning monks who previously had a nation of slaves they could rape, sell, torture and murder at a whim. The Dali Lama was the head of this ruling class with a 1,000 room palace. Of course he wants to get back there. I guess he'll have to be happy with a smaller palace in India, a private jet to fly him out to meet celebrities and making a fortune off selling his newage books.

    As for finding goodness in this world, I like to look at people like Norman Borlaug. He was an agronomist who believed you couldn't build a peaceful world on empty stomachs and human misery. He decided to fix this problem by packing up his family and moving them to some of the worst, most malnourished places in the world and making staple grains that could thrive in very harsh environments. When he won the Nobel Prize in 1970, it was estimated that his crops saved over a billion people from dying of malnutrition. That number has been steadily increasing ever since. The man is a hero, humanitarian, scientist and awesome kickass dude all rolled in to one. He was also damn humble. When he won the Nobel Prize, he thought it was a joke and went back to work. Seriously. He honestly thought someone was playing a prank on him. I also look at the people who volunteer for Doctors Without Borders. These are medical staff who, instead of taking jobs in medical clinics or hospitals, volunteer to have their asses dropped in the worst places in the world just so they can heal the sick and dying. Fucking heroes, every last one of them.

  2. #2
    Falkio

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgi39jsjw0ggg View Post
    Um, if you're looking for proof of goodness, the Dali Lama is NOT a good example. 95% of Tibetans are arguably better off under Chinese rule. Under the rule of the Lamas, there was a religious aristocracy that ruled over the remaining 95% with an iron fist. They were property, owned by their Lamas. Sexual slavery was common, as was forced breeding, cutting off of hands and feet, being sold to other Lamas, gouging out of eyes, and execution. There were no legal rights for these serfs. They were chattel, wholly owned by the aristocratic monks. Yes, China is responsible for some pretty big evils over the years. But the only people who have had their quality of life DECREASE in Tibet since 1959 were the landowning monks who previously had a nation of slaves they could rape, sell, torture and murder at a whim. The Dali Lama was the head of this ruling class with a 1,000 room palace. Of course he wants to get back there. I guess he'll have to be happy with a smaller palace in India, a private jet to fly him out to meet celebrities and making a fortune off selling his newage books.
    I completely disagree.

    Everything you mention is archaic, and has no merit whatsoever in a modern political argument. You forget that China was also very barbaric at a time: foot binding, the opium trade, sexual slavery, and forced labor for the Great Wall all come to mind. The current Lama is a righteous man. See how he responds to the aggression of others, and then decide his virtue. He does not have a private jet, or make a fortune selling new age literature, nor does he "hang out" with celebrities. Whenever he tours foreign nations, he always flies coach and arrives at regular gates. He is a pious man of the people. I think you have a very pessimistic view of the world.

    Furthermore, saying that Tibet is better under Chinese rule is completely insane. Chinese expansion has purposefully displaced Tibetan tradition. Any citizen displaying an image of the Lama is met with arrest and trial. Cameras have even been installed by the Chinese government to record and imprison curious foreign travelers. People are chased and beaten for peaceful protest. Not to mention the overbearing censorship Tibetans endure. Google and Yahoo are both under contract by the Chinese government to prevent access of any human rights domains, and all data servers must be under direct Chinese control.

    Explain how any of this benefits the Tibetan people?

    Watch Ten Questions for the Dalai Lama. You will see exactly what I mean.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    I completely disagree.

    Everything you mention is archaic, and has no merit whatsoever in a modern political argument.
    It has plenty of merit. The Dalai Lama advocates a "Free Tibet", and those who support him (like yourself) claim that somehow, people in Tibet were better off without the current Chinese rule. Historical arguments aside (since the history of China's rule over Tibet is EXTREMELY complicated and dates back centuries), the fact is, 95% of Tibetans are better off under Chinese rule than pre-1959 Tibetan rule.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    You forget that China was also very barbaric at a time: foot binding, the opium trade, sexual slavery, and forced labor for the Great Wall all come to mind.
    I don't recall saying China was perfect. Did anyone else hear me say that? Cuz I don't remember saying it. I'm VERY aware of the problems imposed by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were both as bad for Tibet as they were for the rest of China. But to claim that because the Chinese are bad you can forget about the systemic abuse and oppression 90% of Tibet suffered at the hands of the aristocracy before 1959 is mind-numbingly stupid.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    The current Lama is a righteous man. See how he responds to the aggression of others, and then decide his virtue.
    First off, you don't get to dictate to me how I judge people. Second, I seem to know more about this guy than you do. Much like the Catholic Church, he's got a LOT of apologizing to do. Then there's his role in CIA guerrilla operations against the Chinese army, but I'll get to that later.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    He does not have a private jet, or make a fortune selling new age literature, nor does he "hang out" with celebrities. Whenever he tours foreign nations, he always flies coach and arrives at regular gates. He is a pious man of the people.
    He USED to fly coach. He charters private flights now. He hobknobs with the likes of Brad Pitt, Richard Geere, Harrison Ford, and Sharon Stone. The current Dalai Lama was in charge of Tibet for about 10 years before the Chinese revolution. At no point has he apologized for his leadership role in the structure of abuse, execution, slavery and torture in what happened. So pious is right out the window. As for being a man of the people? Well, aside from the private charter flights (no, he does NOT fly coach - when he flies commercial, he flies Business Class), he was paid about $200k/year by the CIA for his "living expenses", and $1.5 million/year to cover expenses related to guerrilla warfare operations against the Chinese Army in Tibet. Yeah. Guerrilla warfare. The guy is only big on non-violence when there's a camera in front of him. "Man of the people" my ass. Can't forget about his current place of residence - the Thekchen Choling temple. Sure, it's less opulent than the palace he was living in before, but it's still a HELL of a lot better than my apartment. And I have a pretty nice apartment.

    The State Department released memos proving this, and of course you know all about this because the guy is open and honest about it, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    I think you have a very pessimistic view of the world.
    I have a REALISTIC view of the world. The feudal serfdom that most Tibetans lived under was horrific, and the current Dalai Lama did nothing to stop or change this during the 10 years he had before his exile.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Furthermore, saying that Tibet is better under Chinese rule is completely insane. Chinese expansion has purposefully displaced Tibetan tradition.
    And this is a bad thing? Tibetan tradition is one of horrible slavery and brutality. Art was restricted to the monks, and no new literature had been written for centuries. Since the 1959 "uprising", art and literature has flourished in Tibet. That sort of thing is helped along when art, education and literacy isn't restricted to the aristocratic ruling class that comprises about 5% of the population.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Any citizen displaying an image of the Lama is met with arrest and trial. Cameras have even been installed by the Chinese government to record and imprison curious foreign travelers. People are chased and beaten for peaceful protest. Not to mention the overbearing censorship Tibetans endure. Google and Yahoo are both under contract by the Chinese government to prevent access of any human rights domains, and all data servers must be under direct Chinese control.
    And Tibetans also live a life of relative luxury and freedom compared to what they had before. You know, where they were literal slaves. With the Chinese in control, they have electricity, running water, and secular education. I'm not saying that communist China is a paradise - far from it (it's sad that I have to clarify that to people like yourself). But you DO know there's such a thing as bad and MORE bad, right? And that there's a difference?



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Explain how any of this benefits the Tibetan people?
    They're not under the brutal reign of a religious dictator who treats them as slaves to be traded, abused, tortured and executed for fun and profit?



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Watch Ten Questions for the Dalai Lama. You will see exactly what I mean.
    Maybe instead of sucking up more newage spiritualist crap from a former dictator, you should look in to the crimes perpetrated by Tibetan Lama ruling class and the current Dalai Lama's role in said crimes.

    Beckwith, C. The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1987.

    Goldstein, M. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet and the Dalai Lama. Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1995.

    Grunfeld, A. The Making of Modern Tibet, revised edition. Armonk: M. E. Sharpe, Inc., 1996.

    Parenti, M. "Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth." Political Archive. Michael Parenti, 1 Jan. 2007. Web. 14 Dec. 2009. Friendly Fuedalism - The Tibet Myth

    Sperling, E. The Tibet-China Conflict: History and Polemics. Washington: East-West Center, 2004.

    There's some light reading for you.

  4. #4

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    Eh, my professors on the history of Tibet would question your narrative. However, in fairness, I've added the following link:

    Serfdom in Tibet controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I don't know if it's comprehensive, though I think there is much dispute from the historians perspective.

    Edit: Also, to be fair, the current Dalai Lama was only 25 when he left in exile. Also, having your country taken over generally leads you to strange bedfellows for support.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    I completely disagree.

    Everything you mention is archaic, and has no merit whatsoever in a modern political argument. You forget that China was also very barbaric at a time: foot binding, the opium trade, sexual slavery, and forced labor for the Great Wall all come to mind.
    In 1950?

    Either way if somehow enough communist party officials were murdered that a new regime came in and freed Tibet they would not go back to the old government. There are too many non Tibetens living there now.

  6. #6

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    I think the current Dali Lama is doing a good job in regards to the massive task he's been handed...

    However, I find the fact that groups of Tibetan youth are calling to arms to fight back at the Chinese is even better, the time for peaceful resolution of issues seems to have come to a close, maybe the UN would throw some support in there if Tibet formed an army of sorts to start a war(Then again, if they did, we'd all have to go without our fart machines and plastic toys laced with lead! Oh No!)

  7. #7
    Falkio

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    Interesting. Very snide, I might add.

    You are certainly an educated man. No doubt about it. But my question to you is this: do you actually believe the things you say, or are you being an iconoclast for the sake of an argument? That is, do you truly believe - rationally speaking - that a man like the Lama is dangerous to the Tibetan people? Lets say the Chinese withdrew. Are you telling me he'd revert to the systematic abuse of his people? That is absurd. The Lama himself stated, "one must push back" when truly threatened. There is nothing wrong with defending oneself with force. So what if he hired soldiers? As a leader, he sought protection for his people.

    You say they exist in relative "paradise", but would you live in Tibet? Probably not.

    That is all I have to say.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Interesting. Very snide, I might add.
    Thank you. It's a talent, really.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    You are certainly an educated man. No doubt about it. But my question to you is this: do you actually believe the things you say, or are you being an iconoclast for the sake of an argument?
    I do believe it. I hate trolls. I hate them so much. If ever I play Devil's Advocate, I always preface it as such. I am not doing that here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    That is, do you truly believe - rationally speaking - that a man like the Lama is dangerous to the Tibetan people?
    Not only was he leader of an oppressive regime for 10 years, I inherently distrust anyone who has the title of "holy man". The holier-than-thou's and anyone who tries to claim power are people that I generally keep an eye on. History has taught me that anyone who lives like that is gonna be the first one to secretly be a monster. A person can have good ideas, noble causes and do good works without having to be called "his holiness". Like the aforementioned Dr Borlaug.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    Lets say the Chinese withdrew. Are you telling me he'd revert to the systematic abuse of his people? That is absurd.
    I have no reason to suspect otherwise. Now, if he were to release a statement acknowledging and apologizing for what was carried out by the Lama class pre-1959, then maybe I'd believe him. To my knowledge, he hasn't even laid out a concrete plan for what he would do if he got everything he wanted tomorrow. As such, I have no reason to believe he would do anything but go back to "business as usual".



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    The Lama himself stated, "one must push back" when truly threatened. There is nothing wrong with defending oneself with force. So what if he hired soldiers? As a leader, he sought protection for his people.
    Not arguing that it has to happen. But his mantra of peace and nonviolence preached by Buddhism are in direct opposition to that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falkio View Post
    You say they exist in relative "paradise", but would you live in Tibet? Probably not.
    ....
    Sigh....



    Quote Originally Posted by bgi39jsjw0ggg View Post

    I'm not saying that communist China is a paradise - far from it (it's sad that I have to clarify that to people like yourself)
    Do I really have to say any more about that?

  9. #9

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    wow...

    i must say im kinda surprised... its NOTHING like what ive heard before *sigh*

  10. #10

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    bgi39jsjw0ggg

    I have to agree with you, on the whole the regular person is better off since they get access to health care and education that a stand alone Tibet does not have an economy to support.

    I am sure many of the folks who scream "free tibet" are in the "che guevara is a hero, lets buy a t-Shirt with him on it' Crowd.

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