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Thread: I'd like some perspective on this Transgender article i just read

  1. #21

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    I never understood what it means to feel to be male or female. I never felt female. I always felt like myself. I was a tom boy growing up and I still lack interest in make up and fashion. I am into computers and video games. Lot of people don't feel male or female so cis people have no idea what it means to feel male or female. I am still skeptical about the whole agender thing because unless I see science backing it up, I don't believe it's a thing and it's just people wanting a label to be different.

    I believe in transgender alright because I have seen it backed up with science. Even in Islam countries like Iran or Iraq, their cure to homosexuality is giving them a sex change and guess what, people are miserable with it when they go through with it so they have actually succeeded in fleeing their country. So I imagine that is how transgender people feel about their bodies. It's not about feeling like they are the other gender, they feel "this isn't right, this isn't my body" feeling. There is no male or female feeling. Ask any cis person out there how it feels to be a man or a woman and we wouldn't be able to tell you because we don't know. A guy even asked me online once what it was liking having a vagina and fuck would I know. What is it like having a penis? They wouldn't be able to tell me either. Also there was another guy I forget his name but he had a botched circumcision when he was an infant so the cure to that was to cut off his dick and make him female. The kid grew up not feeling right about his body and he was nine when he found out he was actually born male but was made into female so at age 15, he transitioned back to his gender. So that just shows you cannot change the gender, you cannot raise the child as another gender. Gender is not based on what private parts you have.


    I think people get so hung up on labels and gender roles, they question their gender and think they must be trans or agender. Fuck gender roles and stereotypes. You just be you and who cares what you are born with. I am glad to grow up in time where no one thought about this stuff. If you were a girl and you liked Legos and building things and liked science, you didn't question your gender. You just accepted you were female and felt fine with it and didn't care about gender roles. If kids teased you about your boyish interests, "so what" you thought. This shouldn't even be a controversial topic but it is sadly because people get so damn defensive if you don't agree with them and if you offer a different perspective on the issue.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I guess any word we use to describe people as being somehow different from 'the rest of us' will become offensive over time. When that happens we come up with a new label that means the same thing but is acceptable because it sounds different. I think what we are really trying to accomplish with political correctness is to come up with labels that don't imply some kind of defect. That's not easy to do when we are talking about the compulsive behavior and attitudes of ANY tiny segment of the population. It is hard, as a society, to get away from the idea that 'those people' just aren't quite 'normal'.
    Hmm... yeah...

    I remember as a naive kid reading American literature and coming across the word "negro" for the first time. I knew it was Spanish for "black" and had no idea that it would be considered offensive (especially given the "innocent" way in which it was used in the book).

    I suppose it became offensive because of the way that came to be used by white people who were trying to create division and mark people out as non-white, rather than using it as a pure description of appearance. It reminds me of how, during the Vietnam War, the American government invented the word "gooks" for the enemy because it sounded weird and alien. It's harder to empathise with a foe you see as very unlike yourself.

    But it's the word stem in all its forms that's offensive, isn't it? The word transgender is an adjective. Adding "ism" just makes it a noun that refers to a state of existence; like ABDL-ism refers to the state of being ABDL, or autism refers to the state of being autistic. Surely not enough time has passed for "transgenderism" to fall into common usage, let alone common pejorative usage...? And why only in its "-ism" form? :-/

    BTW, calling people "handicapped" is to suggest that they are unemployable destitute beggars whose only means of survival is to beg on the streets, hand-in-cap, for scraps of food and coins. It's such an outdated and judgemental view of disability. The idea behind it seems to be more inherently insulting than other non-PC words.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I guess any word we use to describe people as being somehow different from 'the rest of us' will become offensive over time.
    I keep re-reading that and flipping as to whether I agree with you or not! I'd like to think that we can come up with some accurately descriptive, uncontroversial words that respectable/respectful people can use without feeling like they're treading on eggshells when trying to negotiate perfectly reasonable conversations.

    I think things have gone too far when people try to invent patronisingly incorrect euphemisms as a badge of them being super-extra-politically-correct. For example... It doesn't make sense (to me) to call a disabled person "differently abled". We all have different abilities, but someone with a disability has something they can't do. Why pretend otherwise? To me, that's offensively belittling. It's like pretending that disability doesn't exist because it's awkward to talk about. And it's important for everyone's mental health that "difficult things to talk about" aren't made even more difficult due to language. We need to find a way to talk without being scared that we're going to cause offence.

    And when talking about skin colour, isn't it easier to stick to "black" and "white" when distinguishing African and Caucasian ethnicity? You can tell if someone is black by looking at them. The only way you can tell if someone is "African-American" is to check their documents to find out their nationality.

    So... I think that words like "black", "white", and "disabled" are quite emotively-neutral and won't necessarily become offensive over time. Maybe...



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I don't think you're being insensitive at all.
    Phew! I hope our transgender friends agree.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    As I see it, the inescapable practical reality is that we will continue to distinguish between males and females in certain situations such as prisons, military barracks, and public locker rooms and showers. Men and women will continue to be treated differently in many cases involving medical care. We make these distinctions based on anatomical gender.
    "Inescapable"...? Again, I'm flipping between agreement and disagreement...

    Most people are birth-gendered heterosexuals... and there is always going to be "sexual chemistry" between people who instinctively/evolutionarily programmed to see others as potential partners. So the majority of society will always comprise of men seeking women and vice versa. There's no denying that.

    But does that mean, necessarily, than we will always see "manhood" and "womanhood" as neatly separated experiences? Isn't it theoretically possible for there to be a society where the idea of "individuality" trumps the idea of gender...? Where children are raised identically, regardless of gender, where they play with the same toys, are taught the same things, have no shame about their bodies, have the same professions, and can fall in love with whoever they like?

    Or will the "ideal man in the mind of a woman" and the "ideal woman in the mind of a man" be irreconcilable? In a modern egalitarian society, is it a given than "men" and "women" must be treated differently by society...? That the sexes/genders can never be truly equal...?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    But it's the word stem in all its forms that's offensive, isn't it? The word transgender is an adjective. Adding "ism" just makes it a noun that refers to a state of existence; like ABDL-ism refers to the state of being ABDL, or autism refers to the state of being autistic. Surely not enough time has passed for "transgenderism" to fall into common usage, let alone common pejorative usage...? And why only in its "-ism" form? :-/
    I agree. I've used the term "transgenderism" before and wasn't aware that it might be offensive to a lot of people. I assume any label can be offensive to some, I hate labels myself, but I don't see anything particularly negative about the term "transgenderism" as we are using it in this discussion. Maybe someone can enlighten me.


    I think things have gone too far when people try to invent patronisingly incorrect euphemisms as a badge of them being super-extra-politically-correct. For example... It doesn't make sense (to me) to call a disabled person "differently abled". We all have different abilities, but someone with a disability has something they can't do. Why pretend otherwise? To me, that's offensively belittling. It's like pretending that disability doesn't exist because it's awkward to talk about. And it's important for everyone's mental health that "difficult things to talk about" aren't made even more difficult due to language. We need to find a way to talk without being scared that we're going to cause offence.
    You really nailed it here! I couldn't agree more.


    "Inescapable"...? Again, I'm flipping between agreement and disagreement...
    When I said "inescapable practical reality" I meant it as emphasizing "practical". For practical purposes involving our established social institutions and policies, whenever we feel it is necessary to separate people by gender we will continue to use physical anatomy as the defining factor for determining gender, at least for the foreseeable future. I'm not saying this is right or wrong; just that this is how it is for now. A surprising (to me) number of people fully embrace the concept that gender is a mental state and not a physical one. Again, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but when people claim our institutions have to change to adapt to this new definition of "gender" I have to object. It is premature to make that demand because we haven't established that anatomy is not a factor in determining gender for our social purposes.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    Most people are birth-gendered heterosexuals... and there is always going to be "sexual chemistry" between people who instinctively/evolutionarily programmed to see others as potential partners. So the majority of society will always comprise of men seeking women and vice versa. There's no denying that.

    But does that mean, necessarily, than we will always see "manhood" and "womanhood" as neatly separated experiences? Isn't it theoretically possible for there to be a society where the idea of "individuality" trumps the idea of gender...? Where children are raised identically, regardless of gender, where they play with the same toys, are taught the same things, have no shame about their bodies, have the same professions, and can fall in love with whoever they like?

    Or will the "ideal man in the mind of a woman" and the "ideal woman in the mind of a man" be irreconcilable? In a modern egalitarian society, is it a given than "men" and "women" must be treated differently by society...? That the sexes/genders can never be truly equal...?
    Can we really convince ourselves that men and women are not different? I don't think many people actually even want to do that. The differences go much deeper than just the difference between penises and vaginas, or testes and ovaries. The evolutionary drugs we are on shape our functions in society, and society itself is the result of the natural evolutionary process. To some extent then, wouldn't it be rational and natural to expect society to treat men and women differently?

    I do know what you are asking, though. At least I think I do. You want to know if the sexes can be treated equally as a matter of social policy and law, right? I would say - no. Equality is easy to understand as a mathematical concept in something simple, like rocket science, because it is a specific and testable factor. But in our society, social or legal "equality" can never be more than an opinion, and everyone has a right to their own opinion. Social equality will always be a matter of agreement, and we will never have complete agreement on anything.

    This doesn't mean we can't evolve as a society and settle issues of perceived inequality. Numerous laws in American have been changed or removed because they specifically condoned or required unequal treatment of some segment of the population. But social equality is not always so clear cut because it is not a precise mathematical function. We can disagree on whether or not some people are getting unequal treatment, and there is no mathematical formula that can prove which side is right. It can only be settled by majority opinion; some combination of majority in congress, majority on the Supreme Court, or majority of the voting public.

    A modern example where people disagree on equality is the public toilet issue. Some people say everyone already has equal rights to public toilet use. Others claim transgenders are not being treated equally. Some kind of absolute equality simply does not exist. It is strictly a matter of opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. This is why I'd like to drop "equality" from these discussions.

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