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Thread: I don't think any parent will ever be okay with this.

  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Using real children for the creation of child porn is probably worse for a child than some adult sexually assaulting a child in private. The child is not only assaulted but endures the horrendous trauma of being assaulted in front of unconcerned adults, or being aware that adults will enjoy recordings of his/her suffering. Child sex rings sometimes make children disappear to eliminate them as witnesses. The pornography branch of the child sex industry is dependent on people willing to possess child porn. Possession of porn involving real children has to remain a serious criminal offense despite whatever difficulties there are in prosecuting these cases.

    Possession of artistic depictions of child sex that doesn't involve actual children wouldn't be quite as serious but should still be illegal. This would give us the legal means to deal with potentially dangerous individuals. There may be some rare cases where an individual's interest in child pornography is purely academic, but given what we know, it's pretty safe to assume that nearly anyone possessing such material has an emotional attachment to that kind of activity and is a potential threat to children. It is widely accepted that those desires generally don't diminish much over time. In fact, they often seem to get worse. For this reason I don't believe it's a good idea to stimulate these individuals further by providing them with 'safe' porn.

    As for law:
    I believe legal possession of child porn should still be granted to law enforcement, and possibly academics, for analysis and record keeping, but should be monitored in those cases.

    For people caught with illegal child pornography that doesn't involve actual children, first time offenders should be fined, required to submit to psychological counseling at their own expense, and be placed on a list of potential sex offenders. The fine should be high enough to help defray the cost of the investigation and subsequent monitoring. Of course, everyone has the right to a fair trial and people charged with possession have the opportunity to make their case in court if they so choose.
    Well the thing is with the first bit is the damage is already done to those individuals who are present in childporn, so I disagree with you, to be honest the 'trauma' that people go through 'knowing someone has the images' or 'knowing someone is masturbating to the image' only comes when they learn about it, which most of the time, is due to the court system informing them that they've caught someone with said childporn, this is a flaw in the system as technically the court is what's causing the trauma because they can't keep their mouth shut and just arrest the person and charge them without telling the person who was in the images. So since we can't do that, the solution is to just not tell the people, if I was in some sort of pornography that traumatized me, I wouldn't want to have to go to court everytime someone from the internet stumbled across it, all that would do is bring up more feelings of terror and trauma.

    As for possession of artistic depictions that don't involve actual children, so you're saying anyone who dresses up in an ab/dl outfit and takes pictures with the intent to look younger than 18 is now no longer legal? Anyone who draws a picture of an underage pastel colored my little pony is someone who's a sex offender? Your argument frankly, is kind of stupid, if it doesn't involve actual children and is some fictional depiction then nothing has been done wrong.

    So the police are allowed to keep an archive of this, because the police don't have any flaws.

    Also, under your definition, "Child pornography that doesn't involve actual children" So thats, hentai, loli, cub porn, ab/dl porn, foalcon, lets see... what else, a whole plethora of things. I hope you have enough room in the prisons for that, you'll be arresting half of the population.

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by normalguy View Post
    I think a lot of people will agree that potential molesters should be put on a register. However...

    Who is to say who is a potential offender?
    Your concern is justified because we don't want 'thought police' to be part of our legal system. But common wisdom tells us that a person's choice of pornography is a reflection of the desires that person has, and I see no reason to doubt this. A person with desires for sexual contact with children is a potential offender, and, in most cases, a collection of child porn is pretty solid evidence of that desire. We don't want laws against desires; that would be crazy. But we have to be vigilant when we are aware a person has those desires. We can't simply look the other way like people in the past have done.

    We make drinking and driving an activity that warrants serious investigation because of the potential danger to society. A person faces severe penalties in most states for driving with a BAC over the legal limit, even if that person has never caused any actual harm by doing that. We can apply similar reasoning to the connection between child porn and the potential threat to children.

    Using that reasoning you could argue that people with BDSM desires are also a threat to society in the same way people with pedophilic desires are a threat, but there is one significant difference here. I can't give you exact numbers but it appears the majority of those in the BDSM scene do not actually want to kidnap and torture unwilling victims. They claim what they are doing is not wrong because they are only looking for people with similar desires willing to engage in that behavior with them. They sometimes claim they actually love the other person involved and that that person also enjoys doing those things, and no one is harmed. Pedophiles make that same argument sometimes, and for all I know that could be true in some cases, but the big difference is the widely accepted legal concept of 'age of consent'. Unlike adults engaging in BDSM, children are not aware of the physical and mental dangers of sexual activity and we, as a society, don't want to teach them these things until we feel they are ready for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AddyShadows View Post
    Well the thing is with the first bit is the damage is already done to those individuals who are present in childporn, so I disagree with you, to be honest the 'trauma' that people go through 'knowing someone has the images' or 'knowing someone is masturbating to the image' only comes when they learn about it, which most of the time, is due to the court system informing them that they've caught someone with said childporn, this is a flaw in the system as technically the court is what's causing the trauma because they can't keep their mouth shut and just arrest the person and charge them without telling the person who was in the images. So since we can't do that, the solution is to just not tell the people, if I was in some sort of pornography that traumatized me, I wouldn't want to have to go to court everytime someone from the internet stumbled across it, all that would do is bring up more feelings of terror and trauma.
    It's not just the courts but society in general that increases the trauma children feel by over-reacting in ways that convince children sexual activity is the worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to them.



    As for possession of artistic depictions that don't involve actual children, so you're saying anyone who dresses up in an ab/dl outfit and takes pictures with the intent to look younger than 18 is now no longer legal? Anyone who draws a picture of an underage pastel colored my little pony is someone who's a sex offender? Your argument frankly, is kind of stupid, if it doesn't involve actual children and is some fictional depiction then nothing has been done wrong.
    A collection of child porn is reasonable evidence that the person has sexual desires for children. I made no connection between child porn and ABDL activities or pastel colored ponies. Some people might make that connection, but not me.


    So the police are allowed to keep an archive of this, because the police don't have any flaws.
    Keeping records is necessary for convictions, and also to reduce the number of times a victim has to personally appear in court; one of the problems you mentioned. Police are subject to the same laws as anyone else.


    Also, under your definition, "Child pornography that doesn't involve actual children" So thats, hentai, loli, cub porn, ab/dl porn, foalcon, lets see... what else, a whole plethora of things. I hope you have enough room in the prisons for that, you'll be arresting half of the population.
    I seriously doubt half the population enjoys child pornography. If that was the case, sex between children and adults would be legal.

    Any cartoon explicitly depicting, or strongly suggesting, genital fondling, or oral, anal, or penis/vagina sex among children or between adults and children is, in my opinion, child porn.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    It's not just the courts but society in general that increases the trauma children feel by over-reacting in ways that convince children sexual activity is the worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to them.
    I agree with the above statement.



    A collection of child porn is reasonable evidence that the person has sexual desires for children. I made no connection between child porn and ABDL activities or pastel colored ponies. Some people might make that connection, but not me.
    Well if you want to get technical, AB/DL porn is more or less simulated child porn. It's adults in diapers or other situations that would normally be a child. Under your own definition of childporn, this would be childporn.



    Keeping records is necessary for convictions, and also to reduce the number of times a victim has to personally appear in court; one of the problems you mentioned. Police are subject to the same laws as anyone else.
    Once the conviction is done and the person is arrested would not we remove it from the archive and destroy it forever instead of keeping it in a place where any old police officer can look at it?



    I seriously doubt half the population enjoys child pornography. If that was the case, sex between children and adults would be legal.
    No, half the population doesn't enjoy child pornography you're right, but under your definition, basically anything that isn't vanilla is child pornography.



    Any cartoon explicitly depicting, or strongly suggesting, genital fondling, or oral, anal, or penis/vagina sex among children or between adults and children is, in my opinion, child porn.
    So, you've just done a 180 in regards to what you said like 2 sentences up, under that definition, people who are in ab/dl porn that are depicting themselves in the role of a child in a video that has strongly suggested, genital fondling, or oral, anal, or penis/vagina sex, is child porn. So you really have to make up your mind and stop flip flopping.

    Edit:* Also, fictional porn is not real as the characters age is technically directly that of the person who drew it, provided it was not an image drawn from life, it can't be childporn by definition, as it's not a child, it's ink, on a page, or pixels.
    Last edited by AddyShadows; 25-Aug-2018 at 20:25. Reason: Applying salt to that burn.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by AddyShadows View Post
    Well if you want to get technical, AB/DL porn is more or less simulated child porn.
    That's your definition, not mine. The gist of your arguments are based on that definition, which I don't agree with.


    Also, fictional porn is not real as the characters age is technically directly that of the person who drew it, provided it was not an image drawn from life, it can't be childporn by definition, as it's not a child, it's ink, on a page, or pixels.
    All pornography is ink on a page or pixels on a screen and, arguably, all of it is fantasy. Fictional written material can be considered pornography. Whether or not artistically created scenes can be considered to be "real" pornography is a moot point. What counts is whether or not certain kinds of graphic depictions should be illegal, and that's entirely up to the lawmakers to decide, subject of course to Supreme Court challenges. And any legal challenges won't be about the definition of "pornography", but about 1st amendment rights.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    That's your definition, not mine. The gist of your arguments are based on that definition, which I don't agree with.
    All pornography is ink on a page or pixels on a screen and, arguably, all of it is fantasy. Fictional written material can be considered pornography. Whether or not artistically created scenes can be considered to be "real" pornography is a moot point. What counts is whether or not certain kinds of graphic depictions should be illegal, and that's entirely up to the lawmakers to decide, subject of course to Supreme Court challenges. And any legal challenges won't be about the definition of "pornography", but about 1st amendment rights.
    So... you're still contradicting yourself as your definition of childpornography as the way you've described it would include ab/dl porn among other things that aren't child pornography. I'm more hung up on the fact that you have been contradicting yourself for the past 4 or 5 posts. Your posts are honestly making no sense. You can't just give one thing an exception because you are part of it. And that's what you're doing.

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