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Thread: WARNING! Christian rights been removed

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Personal beliefs influence elections and referendums and, therefore, influence the laws and regulations we create. People with no religious beliefs have the same rights as anyone else. Majority agreement in congress forms the basis for creating laws and regulations. The supreme court and the president can intervene if they choose to, but they don't always get involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    There are problems with your group theory of equal rights. What determines an offical "group"?
    First, that's basic legal theory as relates to the 14th Amendment as defined by SCotUS. Follow-up, SCotUS, through case law, has determined the conditions under which a "group" acquires 14th Amendment protections of equality. Likewise, SCotUS has defined what "equal" means in this context. I'm not going to attempt to teach a short class on 14th Amendment Constitutional Law here - would take too long and I'm not interested. But, for the sake of discussion, tldr goes sort of like this: a "group" is defined to be all individuals with a shared, inherent, immutable characteristic, then includes religion and political beliefs. The legal term is class, as in protected class. "Equal" means that none of these characteristics may be used as a basis to provide differential treatment in law or public accommodation, barring an overriding public interest or actual functional difference. This is why some elevators can be restricted for use only by those of limited mobility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    You seem to be classifying "some Christians" as an official group, or at least implying that they are representatives of Christiany in general. This would not be tolerated if we were talking about hispanics or LGBTQs. Why should we tolerate this when talking about Christians?
    The "group" is Christians - not all members of that group espouse the particular beliefs in question, and I choose to recognize that. We're not going to get anywhere if you continue to insist that all groups be utterly and completely homogenous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    You seem to be implying that Christians' beliefs about homosexuality are entirely based on religious dogma. Are you saying that atheists never have any feelings against homosexuals? If an atheist baker refuses to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding should we blame atheists? Would we claim that atheists are trying to force their beliefs on us?
    I'm not implying anything - the vast majority of Christian anti-LGBTQ rhetoric I've seen ultimately derives from a handful of biblical verses (all from the Old Testament, btb) and boils down to "God says this, so you're wrong." The many of the most active and loudest voices in the anti-LGBTQ movement are proudly, and loudly, Christian.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Is LGBTQ an official "group"? If so, who made that determination?
    see above


    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Q can mean questioning or queer, and the meaning of "queer" is ambiguous. In it's broadest sense, "queer" would include diaper lovers. If you are homosexual or transgender does that mean you are forced into the group called LBGTQ? What if you don't want to be associated with that group, do you have a choice? Should we make assumptions about your beliefs based on your inclusion in that group?.
    Membership in a group isn't restrictive it's protective. You don't have to claim membership if you don't want to, that doesn't mean you're not protected anyway. With the exception of religious and political groups, beliefs aren't relevant to group membership, so attributing beliefs to such groups is pointless.

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traemo
    Equal Rights isn't fungible; it means precisely what it says - all groups are treated equally, identically.
    That is the original statement you made that I still find objectionable because it is misleading. "Equal Rights" are bestowed on individuals, not groups. The concept is that membership in a group, by choice or by happenstance, does not enhance or reduce the rights a person has as an individual U. S. citizen.

    In your next post you say "Membership in a group isn't restrictive it's protective", and I agree with that in the sense that certain groups ("classes") have been specifically identified as being in need of protection from discrimination. But this protection does not grant equal rights to members of those groups. It is only protecting the constitutional rights the individuals already have. Members of groups not officially identified as being "protected" also have equal rights.

    It may seem like I'm just splitting hairs but I believe the distinction is important. "Equal Rights" means equal for all individuals regardless of what groups they may or may not belong to.

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    That is the original statement you made that I still find objectionable because it is misleading. "Equal Rights" are bestowed on individuals, not groups. The concept is that membership in a group, by choice or by happenstance, does not enhance or reduce the rights a person has as an individual U. S. citizen.

    In your next post you say "Membership in a group isn't restrictive it's protective", and I agree with that in the sense that certain groups ("classes") have been specifically identified as being in need of protection from discrimination. But this protection does not grant equal rights to members of those groups. It is only protecting the constitutional rights the individuals already have. Members of groups not officially identified as being "protected" also have equal rights.

    It may seem like I'm just splitting hairs but I believe the distinction is important. "Equal Rights" means equal for all individuals regardless of what groups they may or may not belong to.
    At the same time, it is one thing to protect people from discrimination on the basis of class, especially considering that for quite a number of years inclusion in a given class was illegal. For example, it was fully legal to discriminate against someone for their sexual orientation because said orientation could be enough to jail a person in that locale.

  4. #154

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    Well, "equality" decades ago wasnt true equality, depending on how far back in history you go there have always been groups that have been treated like less than human and at the time it was common and there wasnt much that group could do.

    These days there is a much broader sense of equality, but there are still people that discriminate on any given characteristic.

    You can agree with it, or disagree with it, but in the end you cant change how other people feel and act; as much as you may wish that you could.

    I find it silly there is so much arguing over marriage being about making babies; when it's only one aspect of marriage and not everyone that is married can have children (either scientifically because of being a same sex couple, or biologically due to individual health concerns)

  5. #155

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    We are a nation of minorities more so now than ever in our past. Whites, themselves, are soon to become a minority, completing the conversion to a nation composed entirely of minorities.

    For nearly two hundred years the power structure was completely dominated by white, heterosexual, married, Christian males. Women played a significant role in shaping our nation but remained pretty much invisible in the actual political structure, working behind the scenes to influence the men in power. Minority presence in the political structure was limited and, whenever possible, the defining factor that identified them as a minority was kept hidden.

    Things are different now.

    As a nation of minorities it is only natural for most of us to identify with one or more specific groups, and to be prejudiced in favor of our own groups. If you deny this reality you are not being honest with yourself. We see our current issues in the form of group vs group; meaning group fighting group. Fights will results in win, lose, or draw, with draw being gridlock rather than compromise, and all wins are temporary unless the opposing groups are bashed out of existence.

    Trying to settle same sex marriage as a group issue only results in gay bashing, 'vanilla' bashing, and Christian bashing. This is why I don't like to frame our issues as group issues.

    Do U.S. citizens have the right to marry people of the same sex? Currently - yes. But obviously the issue hasn't been settled in the hearts and minds of many of the people, and Supreme Court decisions are not the final word. The fighting will go on for a while yet, maybe indefinitely.

    Edit-
    Case in point concerning being a nation of minorities: Last Monday Arizona State Rep. David Stringer said “Sixty percent of public school children in the state of Arizona today are minorities. That complicates racial integration because there aren't enough white kids to go around".

    That's pretty funny. What are the other 40%? ... the majority?
    Last edited by Drifter; 14-Jun-2018 at 13:34.

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