ABU has engaged a lawsuit of Tykables over their space themed Diaper

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babyblueblanket said:
It amazes me because in the very small and limited AB world we live in the first thing you go to is a lawsuit because you believe that there is a copyright infringement on the general idea of "Space" being a design?

It's nothing to do with the general idea - it's to do with the name alone. ABU took out a trademark on adult diapers named "Space" back in 2015, meaning that nobody else can legally call an adult diaper "Space" - in the same way nobody is allowed to make a diaper and call them 'Pampers', even though 'pamper' is a common word. It's nothing to do with the design or the theme, literally just the word which is legally protected.

Also ABU tried to settle this without bringing a legal action, but Tykables stuck their fingers in their ears and hoped that it'd all just go away.

NeverKnow said:
I'm sure it would be inconvenient for Tykables to rename the product at this point.

It most definitely will be, but that's why ABU reached out to inform Tykables that they were going to infringe on their registered trademark as soon as they were aware of the new product. A sensible company would have looked into the trademark, realised that it would be a breach, and then simply renamed the product - Cosmic Cadets, Astro Diapers, Galaxy Cubs etc etc... But instead, they pushed ahead with the launch and now find themselves on the receiving end of a legal action.
 
NeverKnow said:
ABU didn't go straight to a lawsuit. Casey, by his account, sent an email to Tykables, which was ignored, and then called to be told that they would not talk to him about this.

They are legally required to defend their trademark or else lose it. They seem to have done as much as they could to avoid taking legal action.

A company by a legal rights does not have to respond. I was merely implying that irregardless of emails being sent back and forth (or lack of) the first thought is, I'm going to sue. We are in a very niche level of marketing and business. I get and understand practicing the art of not wanting your trophy taken away but that said. If you have a better product then it will do the speaking for itself. I won't take any low jabs at how each company conducts their business. Casey has done an amazing job with the cards that were dealt to him and his company is/has experienced what I call "First class problems". (Those are good problems to have)

I'ts simply my opinion that there can be other competitors in a market as small as our that have similarities when it comes to a simple definition of an area such as "space".

I equally applaud Tod for growing his business into a realm where no one else has gone. Personally, I thought Snuggies was a great name for an AB product. The product it's self did not have a representation to the Kimberly-Clark product huggies but through the course of cease and desist and threat of lawsuit (from a company who has very powerful lawyers on stand-by), you're better off admitting defeat and coming up with something else.

I'm sorry to offend the lovers, but I stand with Tykables on this one.

And i'll repeat. It's such a small world for us, don't compromise it, become better than it and let your product stand out.
 
babyblueblanket said:
A company by a legal rights does not have to respond. I was merely implying that irregardless of emails being sent back and forth (or lack of) the first thought is, I'm going to sue. We are in a very niche level of marketing and business. I get and understand practicing the art of not wanting your trophy taken away but that said. If you have a better product then it will do the speaking for itself. I won't take any low jabs at how each company conducts their business. Casey has done an amazing job with the cards that were dealt to him and his company is/has experienced what I call "First class problems". (Those are good problems to have)

I'ts simply my opinion that there can be other competitors in a market as small as our that have similarities when it comes to a simple definition of an area such as "space".

I equally applaud Tod for growing his business into a realm where no one else has gone. Personally, I thought Snuggies was a great name for an AB product. The product it's self did not have a representation to the Kimberly-Clark product huggies but through the course of cease and desist and threat of lawsuit (from a company who has very powerful lawyers on stand-by), you're better off admitting defeat and coming up with something else.

I'm sorry to offend the lovers, but I stand with Tykables on this one.

And i'll repeat. It's such a small world for us, don't compromise it, become better than it and let your product stand out.

The thing is from a legal perspective, there can't be other competitors in the market with "Space" in it, it's part of copyright law, that unless you defend it, you're considered to have lost it. Not to mention that we in the community say we "bought some space diapers" all the time when we purchase from ABU, allowing someone else to use the name necessarily means they're stepping on their toes, so to speak.


Further, ABU's trademark does not concern the imagery, ideas, designs, etc., it literally just concerns the name. As such, ABU made every effort to work with Tykables on this, and Tykables did not bother to respond. At that point, I can't see how ABU can be seen as vindictive or selfish at all here, they don't have a choice but to defend the trademark, and did their best to avoid having to do so.

And at first I was squarely on Tykables side, the idea that one can have a trademark on the concept of space, or that one could even consider suing because someone else used space in their product just seemed completely absurd to me. I even used the exact phrase, "Embarassing and stupid. Stop this." in my comments on it over on Reddit. But once I got filled in on the details of the claim and what exactly transpired here, I can't see how Tykables has any leg to stand on here. "Space Diaper" is ABU's specific trademark, they aren't interested in any other aspect, and they legitimately have a copyright upon it, at that point, anybody else naming their diaper a "Space Diaper", is infringing on this copyright by default. Cut and dry really, and as far as PR and being a good steward of the community, ABU did everything they could to avoid it coming to this, and were spurned unceremoniously. At this point, what are we even standing with Tykables on? Their right to infringe on someone else's trademark? Because that's the only thing that they're standing on at present.

As an aside, the "Snuggies" name was not gotten rid of because it sounded too close to "Huggies", it's because there's literally another product by the name of Snuggies.

https://snuggiestore.com/

Now, I have no idea if the people behind Tykables were even aware that product existed before making their diapers, so no harm no foul for having to change it there. But they were definitively aware of ABU Space Diapers, and ABU's trademark on that name, and were amply warned, and offered opportunities to work with them on it. And they simply refused. In principle, I agree, there is plenty of room for two or more space themed diapers on the market, and for what it's worth, Casey completely agreed, in that Reddit thread, he said so personally. But the company must legally defend their copyright on the name "Space Diaper", and that's what this lawsuit is about.
 
That's just stupid
 
Maux said:
The thing is from a legal perspective, there can't be other competitors in the market with "Space" in it, it's part of copyright law.

Trademark! Copyright law isn't involved here at all. They're totally separate things, they're not interchangeable. The whole "you have to enforce" thing is only for trademark too, by the way.

Anywho, I'm actually looking forward to this one because, for once in one of these things, it's an interesting case. And oh man, if future law students studying trade mark law wind up having to read a case about two ABDL diaper companies because it established some sort of notable trademark law, that will absolutely make my decade, at the least.

So, the last time around with Rearz, I tried to explain the trademark distinction, so I'm going to focus here on the particulars of the law and why I think this case is something of a close call. The relevant law is that if you own a trademark, you can sue someone who "use in commerce any reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation of a registered mark in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive..." (See 15 USC section 1114). And there's a lot there. Let's pull it apart. In order to violate somebody's trademark you have to

1) Use in commerce
2) any reproduction, copy, or colorable imitation
3) in connection with the sale, offering for sale, etc.
4) on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive

In other words, if you've got a registered trademark and you want to sue someone, you have to show four things, so let's go through them, shall we?

1. Use in commerce. This is a relatively obvious yes in this particular case. Both ABU and Tykables are selling diapers to make profits, which is core commerce. This comes up in other contexts a bit more dicey though. If you write about and misuse somebody's trademark in an academic essay, for example, or in a random post on this forum, it's probably not "in commerce." If you're editing an article about the company on Wikipedia and you describe their mark wrong, it's probably not in commerce. If you're trying to drive traffic to your blog that makes you money from running ads it could maybe be in commerce, there's some debate there and I don't recall what the most recent ruling on it is. But here, Tykables is definitely using it in commerce, so check that box in ABU's favor.

2. Any reproduction or imitation etc. This is about how close you get to the mark. It's more obvious why this is here when you imagine pictures and mascots. How close is too close before a design is copying Mickey Mouse? How red can you make a soda can before you look like you're ripping off Coke? We don't want marks to be used so broadly that they cut off all creativity, but we do want to catch people who are ripping somebody off and make a tiny tweak so that the two things aren't perfectly identical. When dealing with a word mark like "space" it's a bit more cut and dry. Are both people using the same word? Yes? Okay, then it's a reproduction of the mark. Check that one in ABU's favor too.

3. In connection with the sale or offering to sell etc. This requirement is here to avoid nailing a person or a company that does something commercial, but not actually related to the trademarked goods. Like, if Tykables wanted to blog about today's Falcon Heavy rocket launch and was totally doing it to drive diaper sales in commerce, they're still allowed to talk about the rocket going into space. It's the fact that they're selling diapers with the design that's the issue. Still, this one's in ABU's favor too.

4. Likely to cause confusion etc. This is the dicey part. Trademarks are registered for particular industries. Applejack is a good example I happen to know about because I'm into the My Little Pony fandom, but there's a ton of marks. Check out a search for them. There's Applejack the pony, and Applejack the liquor, and Applejack truck loaders, and apparently some kind of fragrance diffusers among other things. None of these uses is likely to cause confusion with any of the other uses because they're all in different industries selling different stuff and everybody knows that Applejack automated truck loaders is not selling toy ponies. But there's another aspect to this. Even in the same industry, there's a real, factual question about likelihood of confusion. Space is a very common word. It's in the 1000 most commonly used English words, in fact. So there's a real question around whether a word that common can ever really be associated with a particular product or not. Trademark registration or not, did anyone really think that "space" was referring to a specific product uniquely manufactured by ABUniverse, as opposed to a standard description of a thing that they were making? Like, honest question, did people think this or not? Because that's what the question might come down to. Was ABU making something called space and people understood that "space" meant an ABU thing and would be confused, mislead, or deceived by some other company using the term? Or, was "space" really just a generic descriptor, talking about a product with a design themed around aliens and celestial objects, and somebody else making another design themed around aliens and celestial objects is just as able to use space to describe it.

Now, one more wrinkle. There is a process to challenge trademark registrations, and that's when Tykables ought to have gotten involved. Like, "oh, woah, ABU is trying to trademark space? Everybody uses space! Hey, Patent and Trademark office, don't give them that mark!" If you ignore that challenge process, you're already walking into court going "well, I didn't have a problem with this thing uniquely identifying their product until I made a competing product" which looks pretty self-serving and untrustworthy. Not saying that's actually what the folks at Tykables think, of course, but if you never did a challenge and you only wind up in court as an infringer, it looks bad, and that's going to factor in here too.

So, overall, I'd actually lean towards ABU on the 4th factor too, but I think it's a real question and, if the cards fall just right, might be just enough on the borderline and using enough online evidence (I would not put it past this very discussion thread being used as evidence if an inventive enough lawyer got involved) that it will actually help clarify the state of the law around these trademark cases and when they're appropriate.
 
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NeverKnow said:
My sense from taking a look at Casey's thread on reddit is that ABU has a much better case here.


It isn't ambiguous. It's the same word, and both are using it as in "outer space".

It's just about using the word in connection with diapers, as well, not the design. The idea is that Tykables can market the same diaper as long as they don't use the word "space".


IMHO, it's a descriptive term. ABU will have an uphill battle if this doesn't settle quickly - especially since they've "only" been using the term since 2015 (5+ years is required for a presumption of distinctiveness). ABU will likely have to commission scientifically valid consumer surveys to establish customer confusion, that the consuming public uses the word "Space" as a source identifier, etc.; such studies are not cheap (tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars).

I'm an IP litigator and earned the CALI Award for Excellence in trademark law...
 
Honstly I'm surprised both companies aren't being sued by Wellness for infringing on their "based on NASA" diapers.
 
HappyNappin said:
Personally I think tykables should just rename it Cosmos

That's actually a really good idea. Though I wonder if they already have a run of packaging printed up or even products IN that packaging by now?

Though the details were NDA'd, it appears that Snuggies was allowed to sell off their small amount of remaining inventory under the Snuggies brand but had to change production to Tykables effective immediately.

Anyway, that's why you need to pay a patent attorney to do a trademark search and give you legal opinion before using a new brand name.
 
Am i right in thinking the diapers themselves don't feature the word space?
Then it should just be a case of printing paper stickers with the new name and slapping it over the old one.

Largely just to cover their mistake.

If its just the naming abu has issues with, as long as there marketed under a new name the old one becomes irrelevant as the product hasn't been available under the old one.
 
babyblueblanket said:
A company by a legal rights does not have to respond.

I just wanted to point out that trademarks in particular must be defended to be maintained. From time to time you'll see some charitable, or not for proffit or even youth group get sued or get some court papers filed against them for trademark infringement. They're not doing it to be dicks, they're doing it because they have to. If they choose to ignore violations that aren't bothering them, later when someone does infringe and cause harm, they can cite the examples that have been ignored in the past and start to build a case for the mark not being defended or being abandoned or otherwise not valued as a mark, and can either get damages reduced or cases dropped. So you'll often see those examples settled quickly, often after establishing written contract as to guidelines for how the NPO can use the mark, and maybe get a license for the next 10 years for $5 or something. Money has to change hands, that is an unofficial legal requirement for a similar reason. (you've probably seen the trope of someone giving "legal advice" after receiving a dollar as payment, to establish "client privilege" protection etc, same concept with different application)
 
All very good issues presented from parties on both sides of the table. But seriously, they just need to let it go.
 
I had a quick search via the US Patent and Trademark Office's online search, and couldn't find a registration for the word "space" in connection to diapers.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

I'm not sure, but wouldn't ABU have had to register the trademarked term on this database in order to legally use the "registered trademark" symbol...?

And surely baby diapers containing a space-theme, and described using the word "space" must have pre-dated ABU's registration anyway...? Things like this must have existed for decades:

https://www.amazon.com/Goddard-Cloth-Diapers-BB-Rockets/dp/B00IFRO3XA

Slomo said:
Honstly I'm surprised both companies aren't being sued by Wellness for infringing on their "based on NASA" diapers.

I'm surprised all three aren't being sued by NASA! :)

- - - Updated - - -

Oh -- I forgot to search WIPO.

http://www.wipo.int/branddb/en/

The company Strom Holdings LLC owns the US registered trademark for the word "space" in association with adult diapers. And Strom Holdings UK Ltd owns the EU registered trademark for adult diapers and romper suits.

Are these holdings companies associated with ABU? Apparently the US holding company is based in Everett, Washington, USA. While the UK one is in Bywell, Stocksfield, England.

https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=429318924
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10824920/officers
 
tiny said:
I had a quick search via the US Patent and Trademark Office's online search, and couldn't find a registration for the word "space" in connection to diapers.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

I'm not sure, but wouldn't ABU have had to register the trademarked term on this database in order to legally use the "registered trademark" symbol...?

And surely baby diapers containing a space-theme, and described using the word "space" must have pre-dated ABU's registration anyway...? Things like this must have existed for decades:

https://www.amazon.com/Goddard-Cloth-Diapers-BB-Rockets/dp/B00IFRO3XA



I'm surprised all three aren't being sued by NASA! :)

- - - Updated - - -

Oh -- I forgot to search WIPO.

http://www.wipo.int/branddb/en/

The company Strom Holdings LLC owns the US registered trademark for the word "space" in association with adult diapers. And Strom Holdings UK Ltd owns the EU registered trademark for adult diapers and romper suits.

Are these holdings companies associated with ABU? Apparently the US holding company is based in Everett, Washington, USA. While the UK one is in Bywell, Stocksfield, England.

https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=429318924
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10824920/officers

Yes, Strom Holdings LLC owns ABUniverse.
 
tiny said:
I had a quick search via the US Patent and Trademark Office's online search, and couldn't find a registration for the word "space" in connection to diapers.

I found it! http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4806:ld7kg8.3.1

Note that it's specifically for adult diapers here, so use on baby diapers wouldn't necessarily conflict (although flip side, Tykables making only a t-shirt and not a diaper probably wouldn't conflict either).
 
ArchieRoni said:
I found it! http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4806:ld7kg8.3.1

Note that it's specifically for adult diapers here, so use on baby diapers wouldn't necessarily conflict (although flip side, Tykables making only a t-shirt and not a diaper probably wouldn't conflict either).

Oh -- well done! I don't know how I missed it there! At least I found it on WIPO. :)

Honeywell6180 said:
Yes, Strom Holdings LLC owns ABUniverse.

Ah, right. I just came across this on their site, which confirms that:
https://us.abuniverse.com/about-us/
 
Ok so here are my thoughts on it. First off Tykables did not call their diaper "Space diaper" They named it space cadet. I think that it is a bit wrong to trade mark a word like that. Yes trademark you name for it fine but don't go and try and get the hold on one freaking word. That is just wrong. Space theme is extremely popular in the AB community so DUH! Some one was going to have a space themed diaper other than ABU. I feel like both companies are in the wrong. Casey is in the wrong for trademarking just the word. I looked into in and almost every diaper they have has a word from the title trademarked. Does that mean they can come after me when I make a space themed cloth diaper and have the title space in it? Also tykables is in the wrong for not talking to them about it. On the other hand they were already almost through with production when that first email was sent. There was a tweet that went out stating that the space cadet diapers were almost done with production.
In my opinion Casey should just let them go through with the production run they have right now and just ask that they change the name in the future. The products are already printed and the name is already on the bags. While Tykables are my favorite diaper on the market I do also like ABU so I am not taking sides. I will be pissed to all hell if Casey tries to get them shut down. I am incontinent and Tykables are like the one diaper that truely fits and works well in me. I have been really upset that they have not brought my size back and I hope they do. ( i can fit in the other size but I like the fit of the 3 better.) So I feel like Casey needs to back off and that Tykables needs to work with them on this name thing.
 
Honeywell6180 said:
Yes, Strom Holdings LLC owns ABUniverse.

That's also the name of the shipper you will find when you place any order from ABU.

- - - Updated - - -

ArchieRoni said:

>> This search session has expired. Please start a search session again by clicking on the TRADEMARK icon, if you wish to continue.

What's the URL you were at when you entered the search, and what did you search for exactly?
 
Maux said:
At first I was pretty upset about this. My first thought was that "Space" as a concept is just insanity to try and trademark and that this was Rearz all over again. But I got into a thread on it over on Reddit and read ABU's position including replies made personally to me, and I have to conclude that they have a point here. The name of their product is the "Space diaper", by using that name they're infringing on ABU's rights to it. Not to mention they're willing to drop the whole thing if Tykables would rename their product to some other space related name, i.e. the suit is on the use of the "Space diaper" name that ABU has a copyright on, not the concept of space diapers in a general sense. "Galactic Cadet" or "Cub Cadet", etc. would have been just fine.

I felt the same way, too. I'm glad that Casey brought it to light right as it was happening though - it makes me respect ABU a lot as a company to be forthright with their clientele about what is going on.

I do really like Tykables products as well, but I don't understand why it's a big deal to change the name on the diapers... I think just calling them Cadets (Cub Cadets are really cute too, but I know a lot of people don't like the fact that a lot of diapers are "geared towards furries" - I disagree, but understand why they feel that way) would be a good choice on their part. It's not the DESIGN thats the problem here... there are so many space themed things in the ABDL universe that it would be ridiculous to try to trademark/copyright/whatever all of it. It's the fact that they trademarked the Space NAME for ABDL diapers! Tykables can make as many space themed things as they want, they just can't use the word space for the diapers.

I know people are upset about it, but lets be real here - no matter what, it's a business, even if everyone is trying to do "right" by our community. From a business perspective, I understand and I'm not mad about it. I just think it's blowing up to be a bigger deal than it needs to be. Maybe everyone is still on edge because of Rearz?
 
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The same thing happens in beer all the time. One brewery will copyright a name, another won't realize this and make a beer with the same name. The brewery with the copyright is obligated to take them to court or else they lose said copyright. No one's happy about it but it's part of our legal system. It seems like AB niverse is being very reasonable about the situation. All they're asking for is for the name to be changed as it infringes on their copyright. I hope the situation can be resolved easily for both parties. Our premium diaper community is too small to see our best companies feuding.
 
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