Scared.....

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tiny said:
But how is anyone supposed to guess that the OP is "on the spectrum"?! BabieAshie didn't mention it at all. Can Spectrumites read each others' minds or something? :p

No, sweetie, I was talking about Slomo. If I remember correctly, Slomo has mentioned it in a few threads. Sorry I wasn't clear. To answer your question, no. NTs are the good mind readers. That's what it takes to lie well, know you're being lied to, and even tell, and take, jokes. Interestingly, Neurotypicals do seem to suck at reading our minds. They're better at reading each other's. I will say, that if we're gonna stand a chance of mind reading well enough to joke, use sarcasm, empathize, or even practice lying, we generally do better with each other. Telling someone is a Spectrumite is more like seeing a family resemblance, for me, at least. It can show up in how we write, because writing is communicating. Try not to take what I said as a personal attack. That was the polar opposite of my intention. I really did find it funny.
 
tiny said:
You're kidding?! That's an absurdly unsophisticated ideology. It's fine to lie about some things. It's not just socially acceptable; it's expected.

Can you imagine how international diplomacy would work if no one ever lied? We all have to be diplomatic at some point or another. It's not immoral to lie; it would often be immoral to tell the truth.



Yes! The former! One hundred percent!



How could it be a good idea to announce your fetish to the unaccepting parents with whom you live? I can't pretend to know, but based on the information given by BabyAshie, it doesn't sound like the best plan to me.



EXACTLY!!! So keep it private and discrete. Don't give them a reason to worry. That's parent-abuse! :p

None of us really know the OP's situation. They're the only person who can really gauge the situation and figure out what's best. I hope BabyAshie takes on board everyone's opinions (not just my own) and does what's best for him.

Good luck, BabyAshie! :smile:

I am greatly saddened and disappointed by your responses. It is a huge shame your ideology even exists, and we are a lesser people because of it.
 
Slomo said:
I am greatly saddened and disappointed by your responses. It is a huge shame your ideology even exists, and we are a lesser people because of it.

Let's try keep things civil please. We all have lots of different opinions of how the world works and the best way to live your life. I think if we try to understand each other there's a lot to be learned where as dismissal and insults only pushes us away and wastes the opportunity.

I think tiny makes a valid point. Lying is expected of us all the time in social situations. Lies don't need to have sinister intentions and I agree with tiny that sometimes lying is the best way to handle a situation. No doubt lying can also be selfish, callous and hurtful but we have the ability to make that choice on case-by-case basis. Good intentions and careful consideration of others are what make a good person in my book.
 
It's important to remember here that BabyAshie is only 18 years old and living at home. For most of us that age, we still had four more years of college and home life to go. I got caught when I was 22 years old, trying to survive my senior year in college and I still depended on my parents to pay the normal living expenses and provide a roof over my head. Plus they were my parents and I didn't want them to be disappointed in me or think I was some sort of freak. It's never easy.
 
SpAzpieSweeTot said:
No, sweetie, I was talking about Slomo. If I remember correctly, Slomo has mentioned it in a few threads. Sorry I wasn't clear. To answer your question, no. NTs are the good mind readers. That's what it takes to lie well, know you're being lied to, and even tell, and take, jokes. Interestingly, Neurotypicals do seem to suck at reading our minds. They're better at reading each other's. I will say, that if we're gonna stand a chance of mind reading well enough to joke, use sarcasm, empathize, or even practice lying, we generally do better with each other. Telling someone is a Spectrumite is more like seeing a family resemblance, for me, at least. It can show up in how we write, because writing is communicating. Try not to take what I said as a personal attack. That was the polar opposite of my intention. I really did find it funny.

Oh, no I don't see it as a personal attack; I was just bemused. My advice that lying can be used to your advantage was directed at the OP, and I was just a bit thrown when autism was mentioned. I think we just got our wires crossed somewhere. It's all cool. :)

Slomo said:
I am greatly saddened and disappointed by your responses. It is a huge shame your ideology even exists, and we are a lesser people because of it.

No need to take it so personally. Can you imagine what life would be like if no one ever lied?

Human beings are the most intelligent lifeforms we're aware of. We are the pinnacle of terrestrial evolution. We have the most sophisticated "theory of mind" compared to any other animal. Evolution has bestowed on us this brainpower purely to aid our survival as a species.

An inevitable result of this (for neurotypicals, at least) is that we have the ability (and often the motivation) to lie. Lying is a valuable life skill. We don't have to use it. We can choose to tell the truth, and usually it makes sense to do so.

Imagine if a heavily armed gang turned up on your doorstep and said, "We have come to kill your friend and neighbour, Mr. X. We know you know where he is. Tell us now or we will kill you." What would you do?!


  • Would you tell them, and be morally responsible for your neighbour's murder?
  • Would you refuse to say anything, and be morally responsible for the suffering of your friends and family when you are shot dead?
  • Or do you lie, so that you have time to contact the police and your friend has time to avoid certain death?

Can you imagine how awful stand up comedy would be if no one lied? "You guys in this city are crazy! I was on my way here and absolutely nothing happened. So I wrote a funny script about what could have happened if all the stereotypes about this city are true... and now I will read it to you."

Or what about relationships:

Wife: "I can see you've noticed my new dress! How do I look?!"
Husband: "Much fatter than usual. It doesn't hide your flab well."

If you're serious about not lying ever, then I too am sickened by the fact that you would cause certain suffering just because of your ideology. It's a huge shame your ideology even exists, and we are lesser people because of it. So ner ner ne ner ner :p
 
tiny said:
Oh, no I don't see it as a personal attack; I was just bemused. My advice that lying can be used to your advantage was directed at the OP, and I was just a bit thrown when autism was mentioned. I think we just got our wires crossed somewhere. It's all cool. :)



No need to take it so personally. Can you imagine what life would be like if no one ever lied?

Human beings are the most intelligent lifeforms we're aware of. We are the pinnacle of terrestrial evolution. We have the most sophisticated "theory of mind" compared to any other animal. Evolution has bestowed on us this brainpower purely to aid our survival as a species.

An inevitable result of this (for neurotypicals, at least) is that we have the ability (and often the motivation) to lie. Lying is a valuable life skill. We don't have to use it. We can choose to tell the truth, and usually it makes sense to do so.

Imagine if a heavily armed gang turned up on your doorstep and said, "We have come to kill your friend and neighbour, Mr. X. We know you know where he is. Tell us now or we will kill you." What would you do?!


  • Would you tell them, and be morally responsible for your neighbour's murder?
  • Would you refuse to say anything, and be morally responsible for the suffering of your friends and family when you are shot dead?
  • Or do you lie, so that you have time to contact the police and your friend has time to avoid certain death?

Can you imagine how awful stand up comedy would be if no one lied? "You guys in this city are crazy! I was on my way here and absolutely nothing happened. So I wrote a funny script about what could have happened if all the stereotypes about this city are true... and now I will read it to you."

Or what about relationships:

Wife: "I can see you've noticed my new dress! How do I look?!"
Husband: "Much fatter than usual. It doesn't hide your flab well."

If you're serious about not lying ever, then I too am sickened by the fact that you would cause certain suffering just because of your ideology. It's a huge shame your ideology even exists, and we are lesser people because of it. So ner ner ne ner ner :p

I have imagined that.

Take your example. If the authorities (or even a gang) came to my door looking to kill someone, in that society of no lying I would be assured my neighbors death is warranted. It would be my moral duty to ensure he dies.

And most stand up comedy is based on that comedian's own life. They have it in their own interest to tell the full truth, especially if it's embarrasing. What makes this material even better, is when it's relatable. Lies are not so much so.
 
Slomo said:
I have imagined that.

Take your example. If the authorities (or even a gang) came to my door looking to kill someone, in that society of no lying I would be assured my neighbors death is warranted. It would be my moral duty to ensure he dies.

I'm shocked. That's morally repugnant! Why would you think it moral to be an accessory to murder?! We're dealing with real life, not a random imaginary society that you have just made up.

You seriously think your own whimsical dislike of lying is more important than your friend's life. That's... messed up. You've got to be trolling.

Slomo said:
And most stand up comedy is based on that comedian's own life. They have it in their own interest to tell the full truth, especially if it's embarrasing. What makes this material even better, is when it's relatable. Lies are not so much so.

And that's astoundingly naive. Have you ever watched stand-up comedy? Have you ever told an anecdote?
 
tiny said:
I'm shocked. That's morally repugnant! Why would you think it moral to be an accessory to murder?! We're dealing with real life, not a random imaginary society that you have just made up.

You seriously think your own whimsical dislike of lying is more important than your friend's life. That's... messed up. You've got to be trolling.



And that's astoundingly naive. Have you ever watched stand-up comedy? Have you ever told an anecdote?

You're failing to see the honestly in it, that's why. It WOULD be moral, and not murder at all, if that murder is justified. No different than being on a jury and convicting someone of murder, without the need for extra evidence or testimonies. Absolutely no different than a persons moral duty with capital punishment. And we would know this because nobody would be lying. Like I said, remember....

And I watched Jeff Dunham just last weekend. He was hilarious talking about his last divorce and new trophy wife. You sound like you could use some of his comedy too.
 
Slomo said:
You're failing to see the honestly in it, that's why. It WOULD be moral, and not murder at all, if that murder is justified. No different than being on a jury and convicting someone of murder, without the need for extra evidence or testimonies. Absolutely no different than a persons moral duty with capital punishment. And we would know this because nobody would be lying. Like I said, remember....

And I watched Jeff Dunham just last weekend. He was hilarious talking about his last divorce and new trophy wife. You sound like you could use some of his comedy too.

You're assuming that because the series of events that lead to a group of people seeking to kill someone was based on honesty, the intentions are pure and justified. It's very naive. We aren't angels. We're animals. Mankind was born with darkness in our heart. Many of us have the luxury of a life where being a good person is easy. There's a huge body of literature and research out there that recognises that even good people are capable of things they could never imagine themselves doing, when the right set of circumstances occur. This is an essential intellectual concept. It's something we need to account for when we're making our laws, and it's something we have to recognise when we judge others. A society free from lies is NOT a society free from evil intentions.
 
SleepingBlueWolf said:
You're assuming that because the series of events that lead to a group of people seeking to kill someone was based on honesty, the intentions are pure and justified. It's very naive. We aren't angels. We're animals. Mankind was born with darkness in our heart. Many of us have the luxury of a life where being a good person is easy. There's a huge body of literature and research out there that recognises that even good people are capable of things they could never imagine themselves doing, when the right set of circumstances occur. This is an essential intellectual concept. It's something we need to account for when we're making our laws, and it's something we have to recognise when we judge others. A society free from lies is NOT a society free from evil intentions.

Who said anything about me not having evil intentions? I would let some strangers come and kill my neighbors after all.
 
Slomo said:
And we would know this because nobody would be lying.

What on earth are you talking about?! Why is nobody lying?! That doesn't make sense.

Slomo said:
And I watched Jeff Dunham just last weekend. He was hilarious talking about his last divorce and new trophy wife. You sound like you could use some of his comedy too.

One anecdotal example is not proof that comedians never lie for humour.

- - - Updated - - -

Slomo said:
Who said anything about me not having evil intentions? I would let some strangers come and kill my neighbors after all.

Definitely trolling.
 
tiny said:
What on earth are you talking about?! Why is nobody lying?! That doesn't make sense.



One anecdotal example is not proof that comedians never lie for humour.

- - - Updated - - -



Definitely trolling.

Now who's trolling. You were the one who brought it up and asked if we could imagine a world where nobody lied.
 
Slomo said:
If the authorities (or even a gang) came to my door looking to kill someone, in that society of no lying I would be assured my neighbors death is warranted. It would be my moral duty to ensure he dies.
In my opinion telling a lie is not the same as saying something that is untrue. A lie is when you state something as the truth but believe it is actually untrue. Saying something you really believe to be true is not a lie, but could be a mistake. In your hypothetical world of no lying I assume the people there are just like people in our universe except they lack the ability to lie. This doesn't mean they lack the ability to make mistakes.

As far as "moral duty" goes when it comes to lying I have to side with tiny. If, in your hypothetical example, someone comes to your door and honestly tells you they want to kill your neighbor for pleasure, do you have a moral duty to ensure your neighbor dies simply because the people at the door were not lying?

Sorry, this is getting ridiculous. :biggrin:

From the standpoint of social morals I would say it is morally wrong to say something that unnecessarily harms another person in some way, even if it requires lying in response to a direct question. In the OP's case, I don't see anything immoral in any of the reasonable options discussed. It is a difficult situation with no guaranteed answers.
 
Drifter said:
In my opinion telling a lie is not the same as saying something that is untrue. A lie is when you state something as the truth but believe it is actually untrue. Saying something you really believe to be true is not a lie, but could be a mistake. In your hypothetical world of no lying I assume the people there are just like people in our universe except they lack the ability to lie. This doesn't mean they lack the ability to make mistakes.

As far as "moral duty" goes when it comes to lying I have to side with tiny. If, in your hypothetical example, someone comes to your door and honestly tells you they want to kill your neighbor for pleasure, do you have a moral duty to ensure your neighbor dies simply because the people at the door were not lying?

Sorry, this is getting ridiculous. :biggrin:

From the standpoint of social morals I would say it is morally wrong to say something that unnecessarily harms another person in some way, even if it requires lying in response to a direct question. In the OP's case, I don't see anything immoral in any of the reasonable options discussed. It is a difficult situation with no guaranteed answers.

Now this has a lot of good points. Can't disagree with it at least.
 
hugfix said:
Guys, following your trains of thoughts is interesting and droll but this is not helpful for BabyAshie at all. Don't you think there's a better thread to discuss your creative outpourings?

You're of course totally right. Let's get this thread back on track if it's going to continue.
 
ORBaby said:
Don't lie to your parents. If she tells, wait for your parents to ask you questions then answer as best as you can. If they are really upset, ask them if you can sit down with them later and discuss this when they have had a chance to clam down. This is not hurting you or anyone else, and it is something you want to keep private.

So... You tell him not to lie to his parents... Then say it's something he wants to keep private. You realize these two things go hand in hand?
 
Abdlforever said:
So... You tell him not to lie to his parents... Then say it's something he wants to keep private. You realize these two things go hand in hand?

How is that? Just because you want to keep an "activity" private, doesn't mean his parents don't have the right to at least know about it. The two are not the same.
 
ORBaby said:
Don't lie to your parents. If she tells, wait for your parents to ask you questions then answer as best as you can. If they are really upset, ask them if you can sit down with them later and discuss this when they have had a chance to clam down. This is not hurting you or anyone else, and it is something you want to keep private.

Abdlforever said:
So... You tell him not to lie to his parents... Then say it's something he wants to keep private. You realize these two things go hand in hand?

Okay, let me run this through for you.
Sister tells parents he has diapers and other little stuff.
Parents ask him if he has little stuff. He answers "Yes". (Not lying to parents.)
Parents ask him why. He explains the it comforts him. (Still not lying.)
He further explains it is not harmful and that he wants to keep his little activities private. (Again telling the truth.)
Expressing to his parents that he wants to keep this private is a polite way of saying he does not want it talked about.
 
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