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Thread: Obama perpetuates a lie.

  1. #1

    Default Obama perpetuates a lie.

    Yes that is right. I am sure that you have all heard that 90% of weapons of the guns used in Mexico come from the US. Well that isn't exactly true.

    In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

    But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

    In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.


    So what it actually means is that 90% of the portion of guns that Mexico sent to the US that could be traced are from the US. The number 83% is wrong, because some of those probably came from the US, but could not be traced there.

    The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S. - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

    Yes this is from FoxNews, but then again they seem to news organization to have investigated it.

    Of course here is an idiot that can't even get his wrong facts quoted correctly.
    Casper Star-Tribune Online - Letters
    Ninety percent of America's guns go to arm the drug dealers in Mexico.

    FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns
    Even Fact Check says he's wrong. Either Fact Check did not understand what Fox reported. Of the 11,000 guns sent to the US only 6000 could be traced, and of them 5114 could be traced to the US. Which oddly is much closer to 85% than 90%.

    And even then many of the guns, M16's made by Colt and sent to the Mexican Army, then stolen by deserters are not entering Mexico illegally.

  2. #2
    Darkfinn

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    Wait wait wait. So they sent 11,000 guns to be "traced" and 5114 were successfully "traced" to the US? Someone might want to check my math... but that is only 46%, not 90%. You can't just throw the "untracable" guns away and not count them. Anyone who has ever taken a science class will tell you that you have to look at all the evidence when you make your conclusion... tossing part of it negates the whole study.

    This is just another case of the media twisting the facts to make the US look like the bad guy.

  3. #3
    Mako

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    Frankly, I'd be inclined to believe the 90% "myth" too, as illegal arms being brought in from the U.S. to my country is also a huge problem in our bigger cities.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    Frankly, I'd be inclined to believe the 90% "myth" too, as illegal arms being brought in from the U.S. to my country is also a huge problem in our bigger cities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    You can believe Denmark doesn't exist too. Doesn't make you any more credible, and doesn't change the evidence contradicting you.
    So the fact that not all weapons are sent to the US to be identified, because they are clearly not made or sold in the US. Plus the fact that of the 11000 sent to the US only 6000 could be identified. Plus of the 6000 identified only 5100 or so were identified as coming from the US, which by the way is 85% not 90%. Doesn't mean anything to you.

    If FoxNews reported that the sky was blue, you would deny it.

  5. #5
    Mako

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
    So the fact that not all weapons are sent to the US to be identified, because they are clearly not made or sold in the US. Plus the fact that of the 11000 sent to the US only 6000 could be identified. Plus of the 6000 identified only 5100 or so were identified as coming from the US, which by the way is 85% not 90%. Doesn't mean anything to you.

    If FoxNews reported that the sky was blue, you would deny it.
    Wow, someone jumped the gun. I said I'd be inclined to believe it due to similar issues my own country has that have been substantiated. Not that I did believe it, this is new evidence, and I don't know all the facts behind the mexico gun problem. So I made purposeful effort to express a view, without taking a position.
    I didn't attack fox in any regards here. I attack their credibility as a whole, yes. But to claim every story they have is biased and wrong would be absurd and I've never made such a claim. I never took a position of fox's accuracy in this case. Finn did.

    I'd like to see you address finn's post though.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    Wow, someone jumped the gun. I said I'd be inclined to believe it due to similar issues my own country has that have been substantiated. Not that I did believe it, this is new evidence, and I don't know all the facts behind the mexico gun problem. So I made purposeful effort to express a view, without taking a position.
    I didn't attack fox in any regards here. I attack their credibility as a whole, yes. But to claim every story they have is biased and wrong would be absurd and I've never made such a claim. I never took a position of fox's accuracy in this case. Finn did.

    I'd like to see you address finn's post though.
    You said you were inclined to believe the myth, if you are inclined to believe it than you are throwing out the facts that were presented. If you don't believe the truth of the story, then you are attacking their credibility. Even FactCheck.org said that the 90% was wrong, although they couldn't numbers of guns collected in Mexico. So are they wrong too? Did you read anything I linked to? Or did you just assume that it was wrong because it came from Fox?

    Finn just seems to have missed that only 11000 of 29000 guns were sent to the US.

  7. #7
    Mako

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
    You said you were inclined to believe the myth, if you are inclined to believe it than you are throwing out the facts that were presented.
    No, it means I have an inclination. If I stated I believed it I would be. Your jumping the gun and trying to force a position on me I did not take.



    If you don't believe the truth of the story, then you are attacking their credibility. Even FactCheck.org said that the 90% was wrong, although they couldn't numbers of guns collected in Mexico. So are they wrong too? Did you read anything I linked to? Or did you just assume that it was wrong because it came from Fox?
    Except I never took a position on THIS story, which I've already expressively stated. I never took a position on fox's credibility on THIS story. Your trying to force one on me, then attack me for it. Find your straw men somewhere else.
    I expressed there are similar issues that are caused by illegal american guns in my own country. This is the first time hearing 90%, or about that mexico had a similar issue to my own country. But being there is a similar issue in my own country, and mexico is the other border country in north america it seems plausible they would have an issue to. This does not affirm ANY position, this was intentionally worded to not affirm any position because I don't have one yet. I would need to look into both sides a hell of a lot more before taking a position.

  8. #8

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    No, it means I have an inclination. If I stated I believed it I would be. Your jumping the gun and trying to force a position on me I did not take.
    Except that you did take a position. It may not be a hard fast position, but you took a position. Not taking a position you would have said. I need to find out more before I am inclined to believe or disbelieve the myth.




    Except I never took a position on THIS story, which I've already expressively stated. I never took a position on fox's credibility on THIS story. Your trying to force one on me, then attack me for it. Find your straw men somewhere else.
    If you don't have a position, then why did you reply?



    I expressed there are similar issues that are caused by illegal american guns in my own country. This is the first time hearing 90%, or about that mexico had a similar issue to my own country. But being there is a similar issue in my own country, and mexico is the other border country in north america it seems plausible they would have an issue to. This does not affirm ANY position, this was intentionally worded to not affirm any position because I don't have one yet. I would need to look into both sides a hell of a lot more before taking a position.
    I'm unsure as too what you would like to look into more. The numbers, at least the 11,000, 6000, and 5114 came from the ATF. So even ignoring the number of guns captured in Mexico, the 90% can't be right. Even just using the stats that were used to come up with the 90% the math is wrong. 5114/6000 = 85.2%. So exactly what facts do you want to find?

    BTW Did you read any of either post I linked to? You seem to have forgotten to answer that question.

  9. #9
    Mako

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
    Except that you did take a position. It may not be a hard fast position, but you took a position. Not taking a position you would have said. I need to find out more before I am inclined to believe or disbelieve the myth.
    No, TAKING a position would mean I would have had to state a position. I stated an inclination of a belief, and the REASON for it. Not that I held the belief itself.



    If you don't have a position, then why did you reply?
    To express similar issues happening north of your border.



    I'm unsure as too what you would like to look into more. The numbers, at least the 11,000, 6000, and 5114 came from the ATF. So even ignoring the number of guns captured in Mexico, the 90% can't be right. Even just using the stats that were used to come up with the 90% the math is wrong. 5114/6000 = 85.2%. So exactly what facts do you want to find?

    BTW Did you read any of either post I linked to? You seem to have forgotten to answer that question.
    Yes. But I need to find out more about the source of the original myth, the validity of the study's conductors, critiques of both sides, the factors that could effect the results of the study, etc. A long arduous that involves reading some story on a news site (ANY news site, not just fox) and becoming a believer. I've already stated this is the first time hearing the mexico has a similar issues with U.S. gun smuggling. Converting to a believer in a few minutes would be foolish.
    So again, find your strawmen somewhere else.

  10. #10

    Default Obama perpetuates a lie.

    Valentine - do you have this as a bumper sticker:

    Obama Perpetuates a Lie.

    Or do you have the one that says:

    Obama Hates America

    It will probably be over 20 years before we know all of the lies of commission and omission that Bush and his administration proliferated during his reign in office.

    The fact is that a substantial number of guns end up in Mexico due to the Drug Trade. It is a security threat to the US and Mexico.
    Last edited by Diapered Rabbit; 18-Apr-2009 at 17:15. Reason: corrections, punctuation, additions

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