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Thread: Pro Gay Marriage, Anti Trans

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny
    How was it a "rights" issue? Before anyone considered a "bathroom bill", transgender people had the right to use whichever gender-segregated toilet they considered appropriate. The "bathroom bill" takes away the rights of transgender people.
    There was always the social expectation that all people use the appropriate facilities if those facilities were designated for a specific gender, otherwise what would be the purpose of separating these areas by gender? The assumption always has been that gender segregation could be enforceable if necessary. Exceptions were made for babies and young children. Obviously this is a restriction rather than a "right".

    If transgenders are given the right to choose which facility to use should cisgenders also be given that right? If that is the case then we don't need gender segregation at all. But if we do that some people will feel their "right to privacy" has been compromised. If we retain gender segregation but redefine "gender" in such a way that there is no practical way to determine the gender of an individual in public then gender segregation becomes unenforceable and, therefore, meaningless. Again, concerns over the right to privacy will come up. If we say only transgenders have the right to choose, that would raise some serious questions about rights. Saying everyone is "required" to use only the facilities of the gender they "believe" they are would be just plain ridiculous.

    It's not so much a question of whether or not anyone's rights are being violated. It's more a question of who's rights would we rather violate. This is why I would rather look for a practical solution than continue a philosophical discussion on rights.



    I don't want to offend anyone, but maybe transgender people feel that their own nature doesn't fit in with society's gender-roles. Maybe they don't feel capable of expressing their natural interests/behaviours, and become convinced that the best way to "fit in" is to change their gender/sex so that society treats them in a way that is more in line with who they feel they are...? Does that make sense?
    I can't say with absolute certainty that transgenderism isn't some kind of psychological mechanism needed by some people to deal with the realities of society, but I will say I firmly believe it is something else, something beyond the general public's popular psychological concepts. I believe this because I've read about research and evidence that supports the theory that our subconscious minds form powerful, permanent attachments and aversions to various types of things present in our environments in the early years of our development. This theory is becoming widely accepted in psychology and behavioral sciences, and I can almost guarantee it is the best theory you will have in your lifetime to explain these things. It doesn't do away with genetics or psychology but adds to them.


    I can't see why it matters (from a legal/practical point of view) whether gender identity is psychological or biological. :-/

    If people become transgender because of a psychological issue with how they see themselves in society, then maybe it might make sense to provide counselling to resolve this dysphoria in some cases instead of surgery, etc.
    I believe it matters because if it is a psychological problem then then the solution is psychological treatment for the individual, not making controversial changes to the culture over what might only be delusions. But I see no reason to believe transgenderism is any more delusional or "curable" than homosexuality or infantilism. I don't see any of these as being psychological in origin but they all obviously have a psychological impact on individuals and society in general.

  2. #102

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    I find transgenderism easy to explain with metaphors. Sorta.

    Before the fetus becomes a baby, there's a "switch". For most people, the switch is in the proper position. But for transgender people, something goes wrong. The universe, or God, or whoever/whatever makes a cruel mistake. The switch somehow gets stuck in the wrong position.

    Gender is like a coin flip. It's like most people have supernatural good luck. Their gender matches their physical body perfectly. Some people don't have that supernatrual luck, but with a 50% chance, they still get lucky. Transgender have to suffer just because of a coin flip gone wrong.

    (phone, please stop autocorrecting people to peeps... That's not how I talk xD)

    Transgender is not a mental illness. (though the anguish caused by it can lead to disorders) it's a mismatch. Acceptance and/or transition are the ways to deal with it. It is known as the best "treatment." There are still things to learn, but this is already established. Of course people who have something against it, or people who don't yet understand, might try to go against what's actually already known.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    If transgenders are given the right to choose which facility to use should cisgenders also be given that right?
    First of all, we are not asking for "the right to choose." We are asking for the right to *use* the rest room that matches our gender, the same one we have been using for many years, in most cases, with no issues whatsoever. (Actually, we are not asking for that: we are demanding that no one take away that right, which would be the only possibility here.] Cisgender people already have that right, as do transgender people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I believe it matters because if it is a psychological problem then then the solution is psychological treatment for the individual, not making controversial changes to the culture over what might only be delusions. But I see no reason to believe transgenderism is any more delusional or "curable" than homosexuality or infantilism. I don't see any of these as being psychological in origin but they all obviously have a psychological impact on individuals and society in general.
    Please check out your DSM-V. It is not a "psychological" problem and CANNOT be "cured" through any kind of therapy. Gender dysphoria was once misclassified as a mental illness, as homosexuality once was. Neither is any longer because medical science has advanced beyond the age of prejudice. Sadly, the same is not true of the general populace, who cling to their own archaic views of things they cannot understand because they are not within the scope of their own personal world views.

    There are a whole bunch of things in this world I do not understand. I don't understand the flocking instincts of birds. I don't understand how termites and ants manages to build such complex societal structures. I don't understand how bees know how to do those complex dances they do in order to communicate with each other. Limiting myself to the world of people, I don't understand how anyone cam claim to be "pro-life" and side with those who deny food, medicine, and comfort to poor people. I don't understand why anyone in 2017 still believes that marijuana is more harmful than alcohol or tobacco, nor can I figure out why anyone in government can't see from Colorado's example how much revenue there is in taxing it. I don't understand America's obsession with guns, allowing the NRA's lobbyists to prevent the adoption of even the most logical, common sense restrictions while mass murders continue to happen on a near-daily basis. I don't understand xenophobic hatred, especially when it leads otherwise intelligent people to believe things such as "all Muslims are evil." I don't understand believing in a religion that tells you to hate someone else or that someone else is destined to be damned (unless, I suppose, you have so little self-esteem that you just have to see yourself as special in at least some way). I don't understand Pope Benedict. Half the time, I don't understand Pope Francis. I don't particularly understand why anyone voted for Trump, but hey, that's me, and Idefinitely do not want to hijack this thread with that topic (or any of these topics for that matter), nor will I engage if anyone tries.

    But here's the thing:

    For all of the things I don't understand, and there are SO many beyond merely these, I would never advocate (at least seriously) taking any action that I knew would in any way injure them physically, emotionally or psychologically. These things and people are beyond my ken, but they are still parts of the world in which I live and have just as much right to it as I do. And if they are people and US citizens, they have the same inalienable rights as I do. And I have the same ones they do.

    The acceptance of miscegenation was once a "controversial change to the culture." See the movie "Loving" if you have forgotten. Integration of schools was too. Hell, integration of anything was. So was feminism. So were gay rights. Gay marriage still is, even though it is the law of the land. The way things change in this country is through giant, generally unpopular leaps taken to protect minorities because the Constitution says they deserve to be protected. Once that protection is extended, though, generally things settle down and the culture assimilates them and life goes on. History lesson: in the years after Roe v Wade was decided, the country as a whole more or less accepted the decision. It was settled law, over and done. Not controversial. It wasn't until Reagan made a deal with the growing Moral Majority (Jerry Falwell) to bring the Christian Right into his camp and try to steal the South from Carter that it came back as an issue. He asked what Falwell wanted, and Falwell said "Abortion." Thus pro-choice Ronny became pro-life candidate Reagan and the anti-abortion movement was born...artificially, through political maneuvering.

    That's the point. All of this stuff, if left to its own devices, just evolves naturally within the democracy. The judicial branch, which is the part of government designed to be beyond partisan politics, sees to it. That is what it is there for. Case in point: the natural evolution of things would have had a Justice Merrick on the bench. Don't you think trans rights would be totally safe, even with Trump, were that to be the case instead of Gorsuch? But politics has encroached into SCOTUS now and messed with things and we have what we have.

    For the record:

    Being trans is as innate as being cis. It is a fundamental part of who we are. It isn't like a diaper fetish; that is, a developed product of one's upbringing. No one is born with a diaper fetish. To equate the two goes beyond foolishness; it is a fundamental misunderstanding of both psychological and genetic principles. Consider Shippofox's "switch" analogy:


    Quote Originally Posted by ShippoFox
    Before the fetus becomes a baby, there's a "switch". For most people, the switch is in the proper position. But for transgender people, something goes wrong. The universe, or God, or whoever/whatever makes a cruel mistake. The switch somehow gets stuck in the wrong position.

    Gender is like a coin flip. It's like most people have supernatural good luck. Their gender matches their physical body perfectly. Some people don't have that supernatrual luck, but with a 50% chance, they still get lucky. Transgender have to suffer just because of a coin flip gone wrong.
    In reality, science tells us, what is happening is that the developing embryo begins as a female. All of them do. In order for some to become male, two things need to occur. Well, the same thing has to happen twice. Male hormones have to be released, which trigger certain genes to switch on, allowing the Y-chromosome to activate. The first such hormonal wash occurs in the developing fetal body. The second occurs in the brain, which is developing separately. For some reason—genetic, perhaps, which is what most scientists are in fact now leaning toward, as opposed to the assertion you make, and there is much progress toward locating the specific gene—one wash or the other does not occur in some embryos. Thus a child is born whose body and brain are dysphoric in gender. There are only two possible "cures" for this, as ShippoFox said: either the child eventually learns to reconcile this, or there is surgery. The former is only an option for a certain number of dysphoric people. For others, nothing short of surgery will do. I was among that group.

    OK, there is a third option, and nearly half of transgender people at least try for it, but that leads nowhere good. Would you suggest we all go there? (Hint: I was among that group too.)

    So, hey, Drifter, here is my ultimate point: life is hard enough without going out of your way to make it harder for other people. Maybe I can help you to "get it," but most likely I can't because, as I said from the start, it's outside of your scope as yours is outside of mine. You cannot know or imagine what it is for a child of three to look in a mirror, see what I saw, yet still KNOW she is a girl even though she's being called a boy by everyone and has to go along with it. How could you? But I ask you this, as food for thought:

    If you suddenly found yourself in a woman's body and you knew there was a way, even a less than perfect way, to get a male body back, would therapy be enough for you? Would it be enough to help you to learn to live with it?

    Just wondering.

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