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Thread: Pro Gay Marriage, Anti Trans

  1. #121


    Quote Originally Posted by kerry View Post
    That's the first time I've ever had that response to that question. Most people simply can't imagine living their lives as a member of the opposite gender and, though they say they's find it interesting to explore for a few days or a week, they also acknowledge that they'd want to get back to normal ASAP.
    Interesting... maybe gender isn't that important to me... or I don't feel like it defines me in ways that other people do...?

    Have you read Kafka's "The Metamorphosis"? I can't help but see parallels with the struggles that trans people might have with their changing identity and acceptance from their family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    The real issue is under what conditions men should be allowed to use facilities designated for girls or women. Locker rooms and showers, especially in schools, are a concern to a lot of people. I simply don't believe that these concerned people are all evil anti-trans conservatives, and I think we should avoid looking at it that way.
    If that were the issue, the right-wingers would be demanding a "school shower room bill", not a "public toilets bill". It sounds to me like the issue of school changing rooms is a straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    But... mental "diseases" are natural phenomena. :-/

    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Horses are natural phenomena too, but they are not mental diseases.
    All dogs are animals.
    All cats are animals.
    But cats are not dogs.

    Funny how logic works...

  2. #122


    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post

    It's only a joke in the sense that society is highly unlikely to give ABDLs the same level of acceptance it offers to gays and transgenders. They fail to see the similarities. None of these 'conditions' are choices. They are not mental illnesses. They are not 'curable'. They are not caused by trauma. They are formed early in life; some even claim we are born with them. They create powerful, lifestyle altering emotions. The isolation and social friction often leads to depression. Labels can be used to make artificial distinctions but the nature of these things is fundamentally the same. Distinctions can be made as to how a particular characteristic interacts with society, but the underlying cause is the same.
    I utterly give up, Drifter.

    I cannot continue an argument with a person who cannot see the difference between a fetish that is and must be developed during one's lifetime, as it depends upon their interactions with the object of their desires, and a biologically determined compulsion. Sexual orientation is genetic. Gender identity might be genetic as well, and is definitely biological. Neither of them is determined by associations formed after the moment of birth, but you stubbornly cling to an outdated and unscientific conceptualization of them in order to justify what you believe, which (I might add) is the general pattern of conservative belief: the refusal to let go of what was and move on to what is.

    I find myself saying the same things to you in each post because you are saying the same things to me, and that is a waste of my time. It is clear that you will not allow yourself to be convinced because, for whatever reason, you find it imperative to continue to believe what you believe. OK, fine. Believe it. That does not make it any more true. Science moves on and finds more evidence that enhances our understanding of more and more aspects of our existence every day, and just as American conservatives once refused (and many still refuse) to accept Darwin, the archaic beliefs of those who refuse to keep up will ultimately crumble into the dust of history. (The rest of the world already cannot comprehend the Darwin thing.) So as I said: fine; believe what you wish. As long as you're not out there actively advocating for Bathroom Bills, it doesn't hurt me one bit. And if you are, well, history will show you to have been one more in a never-ending series of stubborn men who refused to see what was right in front of them. You'll be in good company, along with the George Wallaces, Mitch McConnells, Strom Thurmonds, and Jerry Falwells of the world.

    As for me, though, I'm done. You have proved yourself eloquent and well-spoken, but absolutely unreachable. And I have other things to do.

  3. #123

    Exclamation and again . . . .

    Once again, since it seems to have been lost in the noise . . .
    These "bathroom bills" are superfluous and unnecessary for their stated purpose: the conduct they seek to prevent is ALREADY illegal.

  4. #124


    Quote Originally Posted by tiny
    If that were the issue, the right-wingers would be demanding a "school shower room bill", not a "public toilets bill". It sounds to me like the issue of school changing rooms is a straw man.
    That's essentially what they did in North Carolina where the first controversial bill became law. It's just that the popular expression for any legislation dealing with the issue is 'bathroom bill', making it sound like it only deals with public toilets. The bill that was passed, and later partially repealed, dealt with all gender specific facilities in government buildings including public schools.

    The 'bathroom bill' that became law in California a couple of months ago actually was a "public toilets" law aimed at being transgender friendly by making all single occupancy public toilets gender neutral. That seems sensible enough, but I doubt it will satisfy the transgenders as it doesn't address the real issues. Seems like no one wants to address the real issues, and I guess I can't really blame them. As humans it's much more fun to fight than to compromise or settle.

    You didn't answer my question: "Under what conditions should men be allowed to use facilities designated for girls or women"? Admittedly it's a sticky question involving philosophical and psuedo-scientific definitions of "men", "women", and "girls", but it's these definitions that are now being called into question. It also involves political philosophy as it deals with minority rights vs majority rights in a democracy.

    No answer to this question will go unchallenged because there are many, fundamentally different, perspectives and concerns. But all concerns should be treated as legitimate so these concerns can be listed along with various options to resolve them. Compromise might not be possible but that doesn't mean that settlement is impossible.

  5. #125


    My feeling is that proponents of anti-transgender often cite hypothetical scenarios of the risk of violence to the general population. They are rarely based on the actual facts.

    States, provinces and communities have been including transgenders in protected classes for accommodation in public facilities without a problem. This has not turned into open season for men invading women's facilities.

    The reason so many communities have passed legislation to allow transgenders to use public washrooms that match their sexual identity is because of the proven risk of harassment and violence that was taking place against transgenders when they are forced to use public washrooms. Up to 70% of the transgender population reported intimidation and harassment. Why would anyone want to pass a law that will just encourage and incite more violence against a group that is already at risk?

  6. #126


    Quote Originally Posted by kerry View Post
    I utterly give up, Drifter.
    That's sad.

    It may not seem this way but I value input from transgenders on this issue. It's an issue to me because it affects my country by adding to the already widespread, troublesome, divisiveness. You and I have a minor, technical, disagreement on the scientific nature of transgenderism but that is pretty inconsequential when it comes to finding a practical social solution.

  7. #127


    Quote Originally Posted by theroadlesstraveled View Post
    I don't agree with the idea of being transgender. I have a hard time justifying the amputation of a perfectly fine body part because I "feel" like it shouldn't be there. What would a doctor say if I came in and told them that I feel like I should have only been born with a right arm and wished to have it amputated?
    Saying "I don't agree with the idea of being transgender", is rather like saying you don't agree with the idea of being gay, or black, or a member of any other disadvantaged group.
    Nobody chooses to join these disadvantaged groups. Nobody wakes up and decides that they want to face discrimination, unfair treatment, etc that comes with membership of these groups.
    Rather, they realize that this is something they simply are, no matter their preferences. They don't get a say in it. They're a member of the group by default, no matter their wishes.

    Thus, when you say that you don't agree with the idea with someone "being transgender", you're not making a statement like "I can't understand people who like bowling".
    Rather, you're making a statement like "<insert minority group here> are lesser people than me".

    You might not intend to do this. There might not be any malice behind your words. Maybe you truly are on a quest to understand why people are transgender.
    The thing is, it is still very hurtful to trans people to see others, especially in a support community, say things that amount to a rejection of their very identities.

    To be blunt, it comes off as a personal attack. See rule 3:
    Saying "I don't agree with trans people" has exactly the same impact on a trans person as saying "you're stupid!" does on most people. It tells them they are bad, as a person. That they are less than you.
    Don't do that.

    If you want to learn how trans people discovered they're trans, ask them. If you don't understand why people are trans, ask them.

    Don't, however, reject their identity. It isn't the right tone for a support community, it comes off (to them) as a personal attack, and it generally leads to threads like this one where trans people feel like they're being attacked, just for being who they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by theroadlesstraveled View Post
    Something I have wandered in the past: if you consider yourself transgender, were you involved in any sort of trauma growing up or have something out of the norm cajole you into feeling the way you do?
    This is another thing you shouldn't do.
    It is rather like saying "well, gay people are only gay because they had something terrible happen to them as kids".
    It assumes being gay/trans/etc is fundamentally wrong, and you can only get that way if something screwed you up.

    You wouldn't like it if someone told you "wow, your nose has a weird shape. Did someone smash you in the face when you were a kid?"
    It is insulting. It is writing off your difference as the result of damage, or screwup. It says that this part of you is obviously bad / a mistake.

    Don't do that.

    The Mature Topics forum is meant to be a place where we can have mature discussions.

    I'll bold this, because it is important: a mature discussion requires being polite, and avoiding personal attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by theroadlesstraveled View Post
    Let me be clear, this post is in no way attacking anyone.
    The fact that you say this... implies that you know it will be taken that way.... which implies that you should have never posted it in the first place.

    Remember: be polite.

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