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Thread: Medically assisted dying vs. Catholic Hospitals

  1. #11
    MarchinBunny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Really? You're really going to go there? You, who run around posting all kinds of anti-suicide rants, posts, links, etc., etc., you're going to make an exception just so you can take a pot shot at the Catholic Church? Sorry, you've just lost a whole bunch of credibility with me.... going from well meaning, but a little too reliant on emotion to just another... well never mind. There's no point.
    People generally have different views on suicide when it comes to the circumstances. Typically suicide due to mental distress, I would say majority of people would be against it because it's something that can be fixed and typically is far from permanent. While when it comes to serious physical illnesses where the patient is in constant pain and there is no fix, many would actually switch their position.

    This does not make them less credible, if anything ... I would say it makes them more credible because it shows they actually think about the circumstances and don't just fall on a canned response, one size fits all.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrunner View Post
    This is what galls me. The church doesn't pay taxes, yet it refuses to provide services for which the taxpayers are paying for.
    A non-taxable non-profit is not the same as taxpayer funded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brabbit1987 View Post
    People generally have different views on suicide when it comes to the circumstances. Typically suicide due to mental distress, I would say majority of people would be against it because it's something that can be fixed and typically is far from permanent. While when it comes to serious physical illnesses where the patient is in constant pain and there is no fix, many would actually switch their position.

    This does not make them less credible, if anything ... I would say it makes them more credible because it shows they actually think about the circumstances and don't just fall on a canned response, one size fits all.
    I don't say much about my personal views on suicide here because there are too many people at risk. It's the hypocrisy in order to take a shot a religion, not the position that bothers me.

  3. #13
    MarchinBunny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    I don't say much about my personal views on suicide here because there are too many people at risk. It's the hypocrisy in order to take a shot a religion, not the position that bothers me.
    Hmm ... sorry I don't know if I quite understand what you mean. I am pretty suicidal myself but this thread didn't really bother me at all. Also this is the mature section of the forums where I assume things like this can be talked about. I also don't think the point of this thread was simply to take a shot at religion. It was more to discuss what is going on and it just so happens religion is involved in the form of catholic run hospitals.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by brabbit1987 View Post
    Hmm ... sorry I don't know if I quite understand what you mean. I am pretty suicidal myself but this thread didn't really bother me at all. Also this is the mature section of the forums where I assume things like this can be talked about. I also don't think the point of this thread was simply to take a shot at religion. It was more to discuss what is going on and it just so happens religion is involved in the form of catholic run hospitals.
    If I were to post what I truly think on the topic, it might be viewed by some as encouraging suicide. I wouldn't want to do that, especially in an environment like this where I don't know all the circumstances or the people involved.

    In Starrunners case, I see a paradox in constantly rushing to dissuade people from suicide, then stepping outside himself to criticize an institution that also regards it as anathema. I hesitate to speak for him, yet it seems as though he holds some kind of grudge against an institution that has meant, and continues to mean a lot to a significant portion of the population, and has been remarkably consistent in it's standards and beliefs for a couple of millenia (despite failings by some of it's individual members).

  5. #15
    MarchinBunny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    If I were to post what I truly think on the topic, it might be viewed by some as encouraging suicide. I wouldn't want to do that, especially in an environment like this where I don't know all the circumstances or the people involved.
    Good on you. :3 Although, I think your actions sort of make me think you don't encourage suicide. The fact you even think about how your views maybe perceived in that manner seems to be proof enough for me that you don't.



    In Starrunners case, I see a paradox in constantly rushing to dissuade people from suicide, then stepping outside himself to criticize an institution that also regards it as anathema. I hesitate to speak for him, yet it seems as though he holds some kind of grudge against an institution that has meant, and continues to mean a lot to a significant portion of the population, and has been remarkably consistent in it's standards and beliefs for a couple of millenia (despite failings by some of it's individual members).
    See again this is where i'm losing you. This is about a set of different circumstances that I already explained.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    In Starrunners case, I see a paradox in constantly rushing to dissuade people from suicide, then stepping outside himself to criticize an institution that also regards it as anathema. I hesitate to speak for him, yet it seems as though he holds some kind of grudge against an institution that has meant, and continues to mean a lot to a significant portion of the population, and has been remarkably consistent in it's standards and beliefs for a couple of millenia (despite failings by some of it's individual members).

    Jeez, Maxx, where to begin?????

    First of all, there is a significant difference between suicide and medically assisted dying. Suicide can be the result of a number of factors, either through a person's situational circumstances or clinical, physiological imbalances. As you are aware, I have always given my unconditional support to anyone who has been suffering from depression and suicidal ideology, and I have always recommended seeing a doctor or trusted professional for treatment. The fact is that most of us who are survivors of suicide attempts are glad that we are here today and, although there are still tough days, we contribute to the world and we support people who are going through what we lived through. People who are suicidal can't see an end to their pain,, often because we lose perspective. We believe no one cares, and that there's no point in telling others what we're going through because they have more important things to worry about. Depression doesn't come to us when we lose a job or get dumped in a relationship. That's normal. That's sadness and it's a normal part of life. Depression happens when sadness occurs when everything is going right and people don't understand why you feel depressed. With suicide, there is always hope if the suicidal person can take a small step, whether it's posting on Adisc, opening up to a trusted confidant, calling a helpline or going to the hospital for treatment. And depression can be treated and managed.

    Medically assisted death is a constitutional right which came into law after the Supreme Court ruled that it is cruel and inhumane to allow a terminally ill person to linger in excruciating pain and agony until they die. There is no hope in this type of situation and nothing can be done to ease the dying person's suffering except pumping them full of morphine to the point where they are no longer even lucid or coherent. None of us can say how we would feel in this situation unless we've been hit with it. As much as suicide has been a defining part of me, I cannot compare my experiences of depression to a terminal illness, ravaging a body to the point of agonizing pain that will inevitably lead to death.

    There is a reason we have separation of church and state and it's to ensure that our governments and publically funded institutions offer the same level of care to all citizens in this country, and that they don't carry out their mandate based on their own religious beliefs or morals, while denying people their guaranteed rights under our Charter of Rights and Freedom. If Catholic hospitals is unable to provide services for which it is funded, then they should get out of the business and the Board of Directors should be replaced. Personally, I think we would be better off if we had a single, secular system to ensure consistency and equal care without moral judgement.

  7. #17
    MarchinBunny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrunner View Post
    Depression doesn't come to us when we lose a job or get dumped in a relationship. That's normal. That's sadness and it's a normal part of life. Depression happens when sadness occurs when everything is going right and people don't understand why you feel depressed..
    I don't know if I agree with this statement here. I think it was irresponsible to put it that way as it delegitimizes those who maybe going through depression that was triggered by something bad happening to them. It's almost like you are saying they can not be experiencing depression, and instead are just experiencing sadness. You most certainly can experience depression because of things going wrong, and I would say it's more likely to develop in those who are constantly going through bad things. Things don't need to be going right in order for what someone is feeling to be considered depression.

    Other wise you are suggesting I don't have depression and that would just make you just plain wrong. xD

    I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just worded this poorly and meant it to mean something else like, depression can also happen even when things are going right.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by brabbit1987 View Post
    See again this is where i'm losing you. This is about a set of different circumstances that I already explained.
    Yes, and that speaks to my point. I don't know you intimately, nor you me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brabbit1987 View Post
    I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just worded this poorly and meant it to mean something else like, depression can also happen even when things are going right.
    This is a valid assessment. Consider that things may look hunky-dory to the external observer, not so in your own head. I believe you said that yourself recently. Or was that Shybug? I keep getting you two confused due to similar sorts of post. No offense meant by that, its just how it appears to me.

  9. #19
    MarchinBunny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    This is a valid assessment. Consider that things may look hunky-dory to the external observer, not so in your own head. I believe you said that yourself recently. Or was that Shybug? I keep getting you two confused due to similar sorts of post. No offense meant by that, its just how it appears to me.
    Probably not me who said it. There isn't much in my life that anyone could consider to be "hunky-dory" as you put it. XD I would be sort of shocked if Shybug said it too, considering I couldn't imagine anything in her life right now would be considered "hunky-dory" either by anyone. Unless they are a masochist or something.

    But hey, I would gladly switch lives with those who believe my life is "hunky-dory" lol :3.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrunner View Post
    First of all, there is a significant difference between suicide and medically assisted dying.
    Sanitized by liberal dogma, yes, in point of fact and effectiveness, no difference at all.

    If you believe in God and miracles, there is no such thing as a hopeless case. If you don't.... well you have to go through tortuous humanist gyrations to differenetiate.




    Medically assisted death is a constitutional right which came into law after the Supreme Court ruled that it is cruel and inhumane to allow a terminally ill person to linger in excruciating pain and agony until they die. There is no hope in this type of situation and nothing can be done to ease the dying person's suffering except pumping them full of morphine to the point where they are no longer even lucid or coherent. None of us can say how we would feel in this situation unless we've been hit with it. As much as suicide has been a defining part of me, I cannot compare my experiences of depression to a terminal illness, ravaging a body to the point of agonizing pain that will inevitably lead to death.
    The Canadian Supreme Court, I presume, not the U.S.

    I won't go further, other than to point out that you either believe a person has the right to make their own decisions or they don't. You seem to be stuck in the middle somewhere.



    There is a reason we have separation of church and state and it's to ensure that our governments and publically funded institutions offer the same level of care to all citizens in this country, and that they don't carry out their mandate based on their own religious beliefs or morals, while denying people their guaranteed rights under our Charter of Rights and Freedom. If Catholic hospitals is unable to provide services for which it is funded, then they should get out of the business and the Board of Directors should be replaced. Personally, I think we would be better off if we had a single, secular system to ensure consistency and equal care without moral judgement.
    Once again, words mean things. Tax exempt is not the same as publicly funded. Mandatory, permissible, legal, approved, and accepted are all different words. Pretending that mandatory and permissible are the same thing is at best disingenuous.

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