"I Have A Dream"-MLK vs. Obama

[SteveC1981]

I wanted to test the waters a bit and see what others thought.

As most of us remember from MLK's speech, his "dream" that he has is about how he wishes how his children can be judged not by their skin color (as was the practice of the day), but by the content of their character.

I was wondering...with the way that the media has groomed us to speak about Barack Obama's presidential run ("the first black president..."), is this really a step backwards? Would MLK be rolling over in his grave every time he heard the term "Barack Obama....first black nominee/candidate/President". How ironic Obama chose the anniversary of MLK's speech to accept the nomination in the football stadium.

Why? It all seems like a rush to judgement to judge Obama based solely on his race (and to be technical, he is mixed-race...), rather than talk a little bit about his politics first, like Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Mike Gravel, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, John McCain, Dr. Ron Paul, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, and Rudy Giuliani. (isn't Ralph Nader hopelessly running again too?) This is a double standard. Didn't we try for years to break down these double standards to include everyone?

It's not fair and rather insulting that the media holds Obama's race above his political views (wouldn't that be influenced by someone's character?). Did we reject Hillary because she was a woman? No...it's because she was a Clinton.

[Valentine]

People talk about Obama's race first, because as a politician they have no idea what he is going to do. He is for "Hope" and "Change." Can anyone tell me what the heck that means, because he certainly isn't. I'm for "Hope" and "Change" too. I hope I find a winning lottery ticket and I need to change my diaper. I also hope that his "Hope" and "Change" are different than mine.

[handfulofoats]

Originally Posted by Valentine

People talk about Obama's race first, because as a politician they have no idea what he is going to do. He is for "Hope" and "Change." Can anyone tell me what the heck that means, because he certainly isn't. I'm for "Hope" and "Change" too. I hope I find a winning lottery ticket and I need to change my diaper. I also hope that his "Hope" and "Change" are different than mine.

Well, you're really fond of pointing out that Obama doesn't actually tell you want he plans to do, so I'm going to go ahead and give you a list that hopefully you find complete enough to stop using the same god d**n point over and over again. I'll even try and make it look nice and compare it to McCain's plans.

Energy
Obama wants to promote renewable energy and increase production of it so that by 2025, 25% of the nations electricity comes from said renewable resources.

McCain wants to spend that money looking for more places to dig for oil, and with his Alaskan VP choice, probably in the gulf and in the national wilderness of Alaska.

Health Care
Obama wants to create a program that offers a health plan similar to the current government plan to everyone, with cheap payments and is paid for partially by the government.

John McCain wants to make things more affordable by promoting competition between insurance companies.


Immigration
Barack Obama believes that making it easier to get into the country legally will help the problem, along with making it possible (but not easy) to pursue citizenship if you're an illegal immigrant in good standing with the country.

John McCain wants to build a friggin' wall! I'm trying to keep my cool, but if any GOP member thinks that building a wall is going to work, they're moronic. It's a wall....... walls are made to go around, over, under, through, etc... There has got to be a better way than mortar and brick. Let's go ask the Soviets how well their wall worked.

And for the final kicker... this issue is another huge issue that makes a candidate:
Iraq.

The Iraqi PM has decreed that the US be out of Iraq in a matter of years, but John McCain would like to ignore that date and occupy a country against its wishes. He also feels Iran is a viable threat to national security and is willing to push diplomacy aside quicker than Obama. All Obama wants to do is get our people out of there: the majority of citizens of our country and the Iraqi people want just that. He believes that Iran can be dealt with without violence and declared Iran "not-a-threat."


I do support Obama, and I do know what he wants to do. Just because you don't pay attention to anyone but your own candidates views doesn't mean there aren't any.

To the OP: Race is a huge issue, but any political party that attacks that issue would lose anyways. I think to many liberals, this election is a change to show the world that we're more enlightened than they think. Anyone not voting for Obama based on color is...yes, I'm going to say it, a complete idiot and should probably not pass his genes on.

[SteveC1981]

Anytime the status quo isn't going so good, "hope and change" is the basic platform the opposition party runs on. The strange part here is that 2008 is the first time since 1952 that the White House has had no incumbents whatsoever.

The best examples of these platforms being used would be the Republicans taking the White House from Jimmy Carter after a single term in 1980, and the Democrats doing so to George H. Bush in 1992.

Originally Posted by Valentine

People talk about Obama's race first, because as a politician they have no idea what he is going to do. He is for "Hope" and "Change." Can anyone tell me what the heck that means, because he certainly isn't. I'm for "Hope" and "Change" too. I hope I find a winning lottery ticket and I need to change my diaper. I also hope that his "Hope" and "Change" are different than mine.

Personally, although I find that Barack Obama is certainly a well-spoken man who is going places in life, I just can't agree with his politics.

On the other hand, even Ronald Reagan himself started out as a Democrat before the party of AuH20 (Barry Goldwater, who was succeeded in the Senate by none other than John McCain) wised him up in 1962.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by handfulofoats

Well, you're really fond of pointing out that Obama doesn't actually tell you want he plans to do, so I'm going to go ahead and give you a list that hopefully you find complete enough to stop using the same god d**n point over and over again. I'll even try and make it look nice and compare it to McCain's plans.

Energy
Obama wants to promote renewable energy and increase production of it so that by 2025, 25% of the nations electricity comes from said renewable resources.

That's great. How does he plan on doing it?

McCain wants to spend that money looking for more places to dig for oil, and with his Alaskan VP choice, probably in the gulf and in the national wilderness of Alaska.

I'd like to point out that until we have all these new nifty ways to move our cars around, we need more oil that doesn't come from overseas.

Health Care
Obama wants to create a program that offers a health plan similar to the current government plan to everyone, with cheap payments and is paid for partially by the government.

Paid for "partially by the government" means paid for by the people that pay taxes. The Government doesn't really have money, it is taxes people to get it, so where is this tax money going to come from?

John McCain wants to make things more affordable by promoting competition between insurance companies.

Competition should drive prices down, but to be honest I don't think this will work. It is too much like the oil companies, not enough competition.

Immigration
Barack Obama believes that making it easier to get into the country legally will help the problem, along with making it possible (but not easy) to pursue citizenship if you're an illegal immigrant in good standing with the country.

Which part of illegal does he not understand? Why should people that broke the law be rewarded, while people that work within the law be penalized?

John McCain wants to build a friggin' wall! I'm trying to keep my cool, but if any GOP member thinks that building a wall is going to work, they're moronic. It's a wall....... walls are made to go around, over, under, through, etc... There has got to be a better way than mortar and brick. Let's go ask the Soviets how well their wall worked.

I always love the "Soviet Wall" theory. First the "Soviet Wall" where there was one, was to keep people in, not out. Second there wasn't much of a wall.

There was a raid in Mississippi earlier this month, and this quote came out of it.
"We have kids without dads and pregnant mothers who got their husbands taken away," said Velez's son, Robert, youth pastor at the church. "It was like a horror story. They got handled like they were criminals."
They are criminals.

And for the final kicker... this issue is another huge issue that makes a candidate:
Iraq.

The Iraqi PM has decreed that the US be out of Iraq in a matter of years, but John McCain would like to ignore that date and occupy a country against its wishes. He also feels Iran is a viable threat to national security and is willing to push diplomacy aside quicker than Obama. All Obama wants to do is get our people out of there: the majority of citizens of our country and the Iraqi people want just that. He believes that Iran can be dealt with without violence and declared Iran "not-a-threat."

Can you supply a quote of McCain saying that he would stay in Iraq longer than Iraqi government wanted? I looked for one and couldn't find one.

If Obama believes that Iran is not a threat, perhaps he should look at the history of Iran since the fall of the Shah. Perhaps he might want to learn what Iran calls the US. As an example, a few years ago Austria, I think, sold Iran a few hundred sniper rifles. The US requested that they not go through with the sale. Within a few weeks of delivery, at least one of these sniper rifles was captured by the British in Iraq. Iran is "not-a-threat," that is a laugh.

Now having said that, do I think that we should initiate military actions against Iran right now, NO. Should we in the future, I can't say, because the future isn't here. Should we try to deal with them without violence, absolutely. Is that possible, I don't know. But I do know that they pose a threat to America and Americans, how big? That I don't know.

I do support Obama, and I do know what he wants to do. Just because you don't pay attention to anyone but your own candidates views doesn't mean there aren't any.

I have been paying attention, and all I get are vague promises, and no explanations of how he is going to do something, or how he is going to pay for something.

[diapermingus]

Originally Posted by Valentine

If Obama believes that Iran is not a threat, perhaps he should look at the history of Iran since the fall of the Shah. Perhaps he might want to learn what Iran calls the US. As an example, a few years ago Austria, I think, sold Iran a few hundred sniper rifles. The US requested that they not go through with the sale. Within a few weeks of delivery, at least one of these sniper rifles was captured by the British in Iraq. Iran is "not-a-threat," that is a laugh.

Now having said that, do I think that we should initiate military actions against Iran right now, NO. Should we in the future, I can't say, because the future isn't here. Should we try to deal with them without violence, absolutely. Is that possible, I don't know. But I do know that they pose a threat to America and Americans, how big? That I don't know.

That's crap. McCain took his statements out of context. The phrase was, 'tiny compared to the Soviet Union', 'not a threat compared to the Soviet Union.' FactCheck.org: Context Included: Obama on Iran

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by diapermingus

That's crap. McCain took his statements out of context. The phrase was, 'tiny compared to the Soviet Union', 'not a threat compared to the Soviet Union.' FactCheck.org: Context Included: Obama on Iran

Why the hell are you quoting me about this, I just quoted what handfulofoats said and replied to it. He claimed that

All Obama wants to do is get our people out of there: the majority of citizens of our country and the Iraqi people want just that. He believes that Iran can be dealt with without violence and declared Iran "not-a-threat."

So before you go off on me, you need to make sure what I said, isn't a quote of what someone else said.

[weswissa]

Originally Posted by handfulofoats

Well, you're really fond of pointing out that Obama doesn't actually tell you want he plans to do, so I'm going to go ahead and give you a list that hopefully you find complete enough to stop using the same god d**n point over and over again. I'll even try and make it look nice and compare it to McCain's plans.

Energy
Obama wants to promote renewable energy and increase production of it so that by 2025, 25% of the nations electricity comes from said renewable resources.

McCain wants to spend that money looking for more places to dig for oil, and with his Alaskan VP choice, probably in the gulf and in the national wilderness of Alaska.

Health Care
Obama wants to create a program that offers a health plan similar to the current government plan to everyone, with cheap payments and is paid for partially by the government.

John McCain wants to make things more affordable by promoting competition between insurance companies.


Immigration
Barack Obama believes that making it easier to get into the country legally will help the problem, along with making it possible (but not easy) to pursue citizenship if you're an illegal immigrant in good standing with the country.

John McCain wants to build a friggin' wall! I'm trying to keep my cool, but if any GOP member thinks that building a wall is going to work, they're moronic. It's a wall....... walls are made to go around, over, under, through, etc... There has got to be a better way than mortar and brick. Let's go ask the Soviets how well their wall worked.

And for the final kicker... this issue is another huge issue that makes a candidate:
Iraq.

The Iraqi PM has decreed that the US be out of Iraq in a matter of years, but John McCain would like to ignore that date and occupy a country against its wishes. He also feels Iran is a viable threat to national security and is willing to push diplomacy aside quicker than Obama. All Obama wants to do is get our people out of there: the majority of citizens of our country and the Iraqi people want just that. He believes that Iran can be dealt with without violence and declared Iran "not-a-threat."


I do support Obama, and I do know what he wants to do. Just because you don't pay attention to anyone but your own candidates views doesn't mean there aren't any.

To the OP: Race is a huge issue, but any political party that attacks that issue would lose anyways. I think to many liberals, this election is a change to show the world that we're more enlightened than they think. Anyone not voting for Obama based on color is...yes, I'm going to say it, a complete idiot and should probably not pass his genes on.

You must be a Democrat because you've just bashed the candidate without actually telling what he does just using your own view...

[diapermingus]

Originally Posted by Valentine

Why the hell are you quoting me about this, I just quoted what handfulofoats said and replied to it.

So before you go off on me, you need to make sure what I said, isn't a quote of what someone else said.

I did read what you said. Your inability to understand the implications of your own argument is not my fault. Perhaps you should consider the quote below.

Originally Posted by Valentine

If Obama believes that Iran is not a threat, perhaps he should look at the history of Iran since the fall of the Shah. Perhaps he might want to learn what Iran calls the US.{emphasis added} As an example, a few years ago Austria, I think, sold Iran a few hundred sniper rifles. The US requested that they not go through with the sale. Within a few weeks of delivery, at least one of these sniper rifles was captured by the British in Iraq. Iran is "not-a-threat," that is a laugh. {emphasis added}

Now having said that, do I think that we should initiate military actions against Iran right now, NO. Should we in the future, I can't say, because the future isn't here. Should we try to deal with them without violence, absolutely. Is that possible, I don't know. But I do know that they pose a threat to America and Americans, how big? That I don't know.

You don't know much, do you?

You treated McCain's ad as though it were fact, saying that Obama ignored the history of Iran, as well as current reality, for thinking that Iran wasn't a threat. Since he never actually said that Iran was not a threat, I think it's pretty important to correct that misperception, don't you? You and HandfulofOats both got it wrong, but you were the one who excoriated Obama for positions he doesn't hold. I felt it incumbent upon me to correct that misperception. Laughing at policy positions the candidate doesn't hold only makes you look ignorant.

[handfulofoats]

Originally Posted by Valentine

That's great. How does he plan on doing it?

You've walked down a slippery slope and its one the GOP loves you use. Tell me how McCain plans to do all of these things? I don't want a vague answer, I want detail plans in legal writing about his plans, otherwise what you say is just wrong! Isn't that your policy on asking about Obama's plans?

Originally Posted by Valentine

I'd like to point out that until we have all these new nifty ways to move our cars around, we need more oil that doesn't come from overseas.

We have oil. You just don't want to pay as much as you are for it.

Originally Posted by Valentine

Paid for "partially by the government" means paid for by the people that pay taxes. The Government doesn't really have money, it is taxes people to get it, so where is this tax money going to come from?

I don't mind paying an extra 5-10% of my paycheck if it means everyone in the country can have health care. French and the UK have universal health care and there health systems work just as good as ours.

Originally Posted by Valentine

Second there wasn't much of a wall.

What do you mean? The wall went all the way around East Berlin. The US wall is not going to be complete, which again makes me wonder why build it?

Originally Posted by Valentine

"We have kids without dads and pregnant mothers who got their husbands taken away," said Velez's son, Robert, youth pastor at the church. "It was like a horror story. They got handled like they were criminals."
They are criminals.

That's low. Everything you just said lost credibility by telling us that you don't care about the institution of family or that you don't care about other people. Based on GOP policy, homosexuals can't marry, illegal immigrants aren't good people and are criminals without question. Next thing we know it, us AB/DL's are going to be sent to internment camps.

These are people that came to our country seeking a better life and all you want to do is throw them out?

Originally Posted by Valentine

Can you supply a quote of McCain saying that he would stay in Iraq longer than Iraqi government wanted? I looked for one and couldn't find one.

"The best way to secure long-term peace and security is to establish a stable, prosperous, and democratic state in Iraq that poses no threat to its neighbors and contributes to the defeat of terrorists. When Iraqi forces can safeguard their own country, American troops can return home." Pulled from the John McCain website.

The Iraqi government wants us out now, but he thinks they're not ready.

Originally Posted by Valentine

I have been paying attention, and all I get are vague promises, and no explanations of how he is going to do something, or how he is going to pay for something.

That's because you're a Republican, which isn't bad.

Originally Posted by weswissa

You must be a Democrat because you've just bashed the candidate without actually telling what he does just using your own view...

I already said I was, but I didn't post trying to compare two people's arguments. I posted so that a certain someone would stop using the "what is he actually going to do" argument. He still is.

Anyways, I hope we're all able to take everything with a grain of salt. Nothing is personal and its all political. Just keep that in mind that outside this thread, we're all still friends, yeah?