"I Have A Dream"-MLK vs. Obama

[Jaiden]

Originally Posted by sparkmaster

Answer me this: Could a Pakistani be elected Prime Minister? Could a North African be elected President of France? The answer is unequivicalbly no.

What on earth are you basing that on? What makes you think the answer is unequivocally no? Nothing about British social attitudes suggest to me that it would be impossible for a British Asian to become PM. Certainly such a candidate would face some racism, as Obama has and does, but nothing so absolutely prohibitive as you suggest. I assume you chose Pakistani because you believe there is a particular problem with racism towards people from that area of the world? That's true in a few specific communities in this country but it isn't a widespread or endemic problem. I just don't understand where you're coming from.

Oh, and if Europe could never vote for a minority, just why is Obama so much more popular than McCain? 65% of the French people would vote for a man of African origin rather than a white man if they could. How does that fit with your claim?

[Thallis]

Originally Posted by NEJay

Valentine, you're arguing with someone that expects the federal government to go above and beyond their role to protect a percentage of the US population from their own stupidity. While you and I don't want to pay for lazy people's medical bills, retirement, kids, to bail out their mortgages on their McMansions, etc., (primarily because we work hard to have jobs that afford us such things, and show forethought before knocking up someone or maxing out our credit), there are a good amount of people that think we should pay for such things.

This rapid expansion of the heavy hand of government needs to stop, and Barack Obama, in all his unfounded, media and racially driven "change" glory, is the antithesis of that direction.

So is John McCain.

This is where I'll step in. I hope you realize that, for people under the poverty line, which is who these so called "lazy people" are, it is more difficult for them to succeed than it is for someone in the upper middle class to fail. Taxation of the rich to help the poverty stricken is something I can see as appropriate. The only question is what annual income defines rich?

[sparkmaster]

Originally Posted by Jaiden

What on earth are you basing that on? What makes you think the answer is unequivocally no? Nothing about British social attitudes suggest to me that it would be impossible for a British Asian to become PM. Certainly such a candidate would face some racism, as Obama has and does, but nothing so absolutely prohibitive as you suggest. I assume you chose Pakistani because you believe there is a particular problem with racism towards people from that area of the world? That's true in a few specific communities in this country but it isn't a widespread or endemic problem. I just don't understand where you're coming from.

Is there any evidence, anywhere in Europe, that an ethnic minority man or woman has ever made a legitimate run at President, Prime Minister, or equivalent office? No ethnic minority in Western Europe has ever campaigned for a realistic shot at office. Obama will get at least 45% of the vote come November. No European minority could ever hope for such office because Europe is a dominantly homogenius society.

Oh, and if Europe could never vote for a minority, just why is Obama so much more popular than McCain? 65% of the French people would vote for a man of African origin rather than a white man if they could. How does that fit with your claim?

The difference is, though, that they would be voting in an American election (hypothetically). Obama is America's candidate. He would be laughed out of the elections if he tried to run in France.

[DotDotDot]

MLK Jr was legit. He had an agenda and it was civil rights.

Obama ... I don't know. He has an agenda but I can't quite figure out what it is. I don't trust him for some reason ... wayyyyyyyyyy to charismatic.

[Millenniumfalsehood]

Same here, Dot. I like Obama, but I'm just not sure where he's coming from or what his intentions truly are. I applaud his desire to change the country, but he hasn't yet defined precisely how he'll change it. I really wish I could have a one-on-one with him to see where he stands on certain things.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by Millenniumfalsehood

Same here, Dot. I like Obama, but I'm just not sure where he's coming from or what his intentions truly are. I applaud his desire to change the country, but he hasn't yet defined precisely how he'll change it. I really wish I could have a one-on-one with him to see where he stands on certain things.

Originally Posted by DotDotDot

MLK Jr was legit. He had an agenda and it was civil rights.

Obama ... I don't know. He has an agenda but I can't quite figure out what it is. I don't trust him for some reason ... wayyyyyyyyyy to charismatic.

See I'm not the only one.

[Jaiden]

Originally Posted by sparkmaster

Is there any evidence, anywhere in Europe, that an ethnic minority man or woman has ever made a legitimate run at President, Prime Minister, or equivalent office?

This time last year you could have replaced 'Europe' with 'America' and the answer would also have been no. Clearly that did not mean that no ethnic minority could ever hope for high office in the states, it simply meant that such a person had not yet come along. It's the same in Europe; if Obama was British he would be lapped up and swept into office right now and his skin colour would not bar him from that.

I've shown you that equivalent proportions of minorities are elected as representatives in Europe as America and I've shown you that being black has not affected Obama being extremely popular here. There are and have been ethnic minorities at very high levels of politics in this continent and there have been women and ethnic Jews at the very highest level here. Where in that picture do you decide that 'no European minority could ever hope for such office'? Your argument just doesn't seem to have any substance, mate.

It has not happened yet but nothing culturally, socially or politically suggests that it would be impossible.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by Jaiden

This time last year you could have replaced 'Europe' with 'America' and the answer would also have been no. Clearly that did not mean that no ethnic minority could ever hope for high office in the states, it simply meant that such a person had not yet come along. It's the same in Europe; if Obama was British he would be lapped up and swept into office right now and his skin colour would not bar him from that.

I've shown you that equivalent proportions of minorities are elected as representatives in Europe as America and I've shown you that being black has not affected Obama being extremely popular here. There are and have been ethnic minorities at very high levels of politics in this continent and there have been women and ethnic Jews at the very highest level here. Where in that picture do you decide that 'no European minority could ever hope for such office'? Your argument just doesn't seem to have any substance, mate.

It has not happened yet but nothing culturally, socially or politically suggests that it would be impossible.

Depending upon what you mean by legitimate run, Jesse Jackson in 1984 won 5 primaries and got over 18% of the total vote. He did twice as good in 1998 winning 11 primaries and about doubled his vote total. Are those legitimate runs, that can be debated.

[Jaiden]

Originally Posted by Valentine

Depending upon what you mean by legitimate run, Jesse Jackson in 1984 won 5 primaries and got over 18% of the total vote. He did twice as good in 1998 winning 11 primaries and about doubled his vote total. Are those legitimate runs, that can be debated.

Eh, I took 'a legitimate run' to mean either a presidential candidate or a party leader.

I don't think people who never actually ran for office but did quite well in the contest to select who would run can be counted as having had a real chance at the job because it was never actually put to a public test.

[Izzy]

It seems we've moved away from the original topic:

Dr. King would be proud of Barack Obama, but at the same time, a little sad. Sad that it has taken soo long to challenge the American conception of citizenship as white.