"I Have A Dream"-MLK vs. Obama

[dogboy]

Well, after all of that....you asked if MLK would be rolling over in his grave if Obama got elected. In the late 60's I met with the Black Panters, and I sang in the choir for MLK's national funeral, and yes, I'm white. I was one of those you see in the old news clips fighting for civil rights. You have to look at Obama, and race from the perspective of persecution. One of my best friends in college was a very talented African American. One night we went out to a dinner on Rt. 1, a favorite trucker stop. While eating, we were getting all of these stares and menacing looks from the truckers, and I said to my friend, "What is this all about?" And he said, "You fool. You're eating with a black dude, and you're white."

You can't imagine what it was like back then. If you were a young white guy with long hair, and particularly if you were with a black guy, you could be beaten to death. I know, I experienced that kind of racism. The horrors of slavery changed their shape and form after the Civil War, through the early part of the 20th century, when many black people were taken and hung, until fear spread the message of hate. Now we see how far we have come, and this is a huge message of change, where black people can not only walk down the street and not be intimidated, but can be respected like anyone else.

As for hope and change, I hope we can improve health care and social security. I hope No Child Left Behind can be replaced by something that helps the inner city, and poverty. I teach in an inner city school, and you can't imagine how may times I hear our young kids say that there's no point in studying because they will only wind up in jail as an adult, or die out on the streets. America needs hope, and our children need hope. I hope the change will be meaningful and improve our lives.

But to answer your question, MLK would be very proud, not just of Obama, but of all of us, because we as a nation have made this possible, because we moved on from the rhetoric and hate and violence. Obama is proof of that progress. In a way, you are all responsible.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by handfulofoats

You've walked down a slippery slope and its one the GOP loves you use. Tell me how McCain plans to do all of these things? I don't want a vague answer, I want detail plans in legal writing about his plans, otherwise what you say is just wrong! Isn't that your policy on asking about Obama's plans?

Very good job of avoiding the question. You should be a politician

We have oil. You just don't want to pay as much as you are for it.

Yes and we should remove more of it from the ground that it is in. Not only would it lower the price of gas and everything else, it would create jobs. And you are right, I do want to pay less for oil and gas.

I don't mind paying an extra 5-10% of my paycheck if it means everyone in the country can have health care. French and the UK have universal health care and there health systems work just as good as ours.

I do. I already pay for things that I don't use, like schools, and welfare, why should I pay more for someone else's medical care, which I already do pay for.

What do you mean? The wall went all the way around East Berlin. The US wall is not going to be complete, which again makes me wonder why build it?

Yep that wall, in the 28 years or so of it's existence only 5000 people made out of East Berlin. Maybe that means that it was a good wall, if it only allows a couple hundred illegal immigrants across a year, that would be a good thing.

That's low. Everything you just said lost credibility by telling us that you don't care about the institution of family or that you don't care about other people. Based on GOP policy, homosexuals can't marry, illegal immigrants aren't good people and are criminals without question. Next thing we know it, us AB/DL's are going to be sent to internment camps.

I care about the law. Nice there trying to say that someone doing something illegal isn't a criminal, and taking the very odd step from arresting lawbreakers to interning AB/DLs (are you sure you aren't a politician?)

A couple of points, I am not a member of the GOP, I am an independent, that oddly has voted for every President except one, I supported Bill & Opus the year they ran. Second during that raid, ICE allowed the mothers of small children to return their homes to take care of their children. Third based upon your statements up there, it can be assumed that you support freeing all felons that have a family.

These are people that came to our country seeking a better life and all you want to do is throw them out?

Yep, if they want to seek a better life here, they can follow the laws like everyone else is supposed to. We have rules for immigration, and there are people out there right now that are following those rules, why should they be penalized for following them? Let me ask you this, what would you do if some homeless person moved into your house and started eating your food, and spending your money? You would call the police on him. That is what these illegal immigrants are doing.

"The best way to secure long-term peace and security is to establish a stable, prosperous, and democratic state in Iraq that poses no threat to its neighbors and contributes to the defeat of terrorists. When Iraqi forces can safeguard their own country, American troops can return home." Pulled from the John McCain website.

The Iraqi government wants us out now, but he thinks they're not ready.

I believe they said 2010 or 2011, not now. While McCain's statement says how long he believes that US Troops should stay in Iraq, he doesn't say that he will keep them there against the Iraqi governments wishes.

That's because you're a Republican, which isn't bad.

Nope, I am independent, as I said before. I vote for who I think will do the best job.


diapermingus, I saw that McCain ad once, and do not remember what it said, I was not basing my reply on it, but on what handfulofoats posted, if you look carefully he posted the "not-a-threat" first and I was quoting him. I based that entire part of the reply on what he said, not some commercial that I barely remember. I am curious as to how many times I will have to say this before you understand it.

[NEJay]

Valentine, you're arguing with someone that expects the federal government to go above and beyond their role to protect a percentage of the US population from their own stupidity. While you and I don't want to pay for lazy people's medical bills, retirement, kids, to bail out their mortgages on their McMansions, etc., (primarily because we work hard to have jobs that afford us such things, and show forethought before knocking up someone or maxing out our credit), there are a good amount of people that think we should pay for such things.

This rapid expansion of the heavy hand of government needs to stop, and Barack Obama, in all his unfounded, media and racially driven "change" glory, is the antithesis of that direction.

So is John McCain.

[diapermingus]

Originally Posted by Valentine

diapermingus, I saw that McCain ad once, and do not remember what it said, I was not basing my reply on it, but on what handfulofoats posted, if you look carefully he posted the "not-a-threat" first and I was quoting him. I based that entire part of the reply on what he said, not some commercial that I barely remember. I am curious as to how many times I will have to say this before you understand it.

I don't know. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'll understand that I know you were quoting handfulofoats. That's not what I was getting at.

I'll say this once. Obama thinks Iran is a threat. Anything you say to the contrary is putting words in his mouth. Do not criticise him for views he does not hold. Feel free to imply criticism of views he does not hold, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

NEJay, there is so much wrong with what you said that I barely know where to begin. I can only say I hope you never need medical care that you can't afford. Did you make your own way? Did you pay for whatever education you have? Did you go to a private school? Have you ever had to choose between staying out of debt and getting medical care for sick children? Your sense of moral superiority is grotesque. Show some compassion and decency, and recognise that you could not be where you are without the help of other people and, yes, of the government.

'Racially-driven' is a particularly ugly comment. Is there something you'd like to say about Senator Obama? What, exactly, are you trying to say?

I'm done with this thread. It has nothing to do with Martin Luther King, and very little to do with Obama.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by diapermingus

I don't know. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'll understand that I know you were quoting handfulofoats. That's not what I was getting at.

If you understood that I was quoting handfulofoats, then why did you bring up an ad and accuse me of basing my answers to handfulofoats on it?

And why did you ignore the first word in my reply:
"If Obama believes that Iran is not a threat,"

I'll say this once. Obama thinks Iran is a threat. Anything you say to the contrary is putting words in his mouth. Do not criticise him for views he does not hold. Feel free to imply criticism of views he does not hold, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I did not put words in his mouth, I replied to what handfulofoats claimed. Do you understand the difference here? Why aren't you calling him out on putting words in Obama's mouth? It is very hard to take you seriously, since you seem not to be able to understand and comprehend what you read.

I'm done with this thread. It has nothing to do with Martin Luther King, and very little to do with Obama.

It does have to do with you making false accusations about people though.

[weswissa]

Originally Posted by Valentine

Very good job of avoiding the question. You should be a politician

I was going for a Democrat, but whatever you think...

~Weswissa

[handfulofoats]

I made two serious mistakes on these forums in the last few days: one, I misquoted Obama and used what he said out of context for my own needs. Now I look like I'm uneducated because I said something stupid about Iran; two, I kept these arguments going.

The thing about debate is its not about proving the other guy wrong, its about convincing the audience. Me telling you my opinion and you telling me your opinion is about as far as we can go without it turning into a slap fest. Even after all of these, I'm still voting for Obama and the conservatives are voting for McCain.

The argument was frivolous and I knew that. I rose to the challenge only to realize there was no challenge. No one here is worth getting that worked up over when the end result is the exact same as before. Its just not fun anymore when no one gives grounds so I'm walking away from all political discussion.

[sparkmaster]

I admit, watching Obama doing his speech at mile high gave me a bit of a chill. It was seeing history, really.

I don't like Obama because of his policies. But I'm glad he's running. It is telling that a Black man can run in the US and have a very good chance at being president. Honestly, I don't think there's any other nation in the world (asides from perhaps canada) that a minority can run for the highest office. It's especially telling that, with obama being so popular, no European country could elect a minority to high office, much less the presidency or prime ministry.

Obama's running proves how far the US has come from the days of Jim Crow. We still have a long, long way to go before we can genuinely say that race is not a factor in society, but this demonstrates that we are on the right track.

[Millenniumfalsehood]

To be honest, I haven't aid much attention to the news because I don't watch it, so I can't honestly say which candidate I'd like to win(though to be honest, I liked Mike Huckabee as a Republican candidate better than McCain)

What I'd like to do is express what I'd have the next president do while in office:

Energy:

Drill in Alaska as a holdover and start another Ansari X-prize to develop a cheap, reliable, and economical alternative fuel source. I'd replace as many coal-fire plants as I could with nuclear ones and use the millions of dollars a year saved by not having to mine coal to build single-use rockets to blast the nasty by-products to the sun.

Space program:

I have no idea how the government handles the space program, but I'd split NASA into two or three agencies. Why? So that they'll be competitive! With three agencies the competition to create better plastics, fuels, metals, composites, and other neat stuff we depend on in our advanced age will be developed faster and with better quality than ever before. Exploration and exploitation of the solar system will also save our planet from being exhausted of all it's natural resources, and farther planets will bring in rare elements that are hard to find on Earth. Also, increase NASA budget from the measly 0.5*% of the national income to something more substantial. We spend more on the war in Iraq in an hour than NASA does in a month.

Iraq War:

First off, because I know a little bit about the culture of Iraq, I believe it was the wrong time to start a war with them. I am glad we bloodied their noses, but its simply the wrong time to try to get them to accept democracy. We should back out soon and let them solve their own problems. They need to learn to stand on their own two feet.

Illegal Immigration problem:

Building a fence both is and is not the answer. You need to have a way to force the Illegals through your gates, and the way to do that is to make them *want* to go through the legal way. Make the process to become a legal citizen shorter and easier to do than ever before, and give a care package of a few months' worth of food, shelter, and transportation before cutting all ties. I believe it's a states issue to help immigrants, not the government's, because the smaller the scale, the easier it is to manage. A state(especially one like Rhode Island) can manage it's population easier than a country.

Education:

Get rid of that stupid No Child Left Behind law. Anyone who believes that lowering the qualifications to pass exams will lead to a better education is an idiot. If they fail, hold them back until they do get it. If they have to repeat the fifth grade until they learn their material, then it's just another motivation to get the schoolwork done. There should be some immunity laws for teachers to protect them from parents who think that Johnny is smart and the 45% he got on his test was because the teacher is out to get him. Also on the other end of the spectrum, teachers should be encouraged to be engaging to their students. This will make them want to learn more than plopping a bunch of material in front of them and saying "learn this".

Economy:

I'm not going to touch this one, because I don't know enough about economics to make an informed decision on what I would like the next president to do.

One thing I'd like to do is get ride of the whole two-party system. Just have the states each pick a candidate and through process of elimination find out who the people really want.

[Jaiden]

Originally Posted by sparkmaster

I admit, watching Obama doing his speech at mile high gave me a bit of a chill. It was seeing history, really.

I don't like Obama because of his policies. But I'm glad he's running. It is telling that a Black man can run in the US and have a very good chance at being president. Honestly, I don't think there's any other nation in the world (asides from perhaps canada) that a minority can run for the highest office. It's especially telling that, with obama being so popular, no European country could elect a minority to high office, much less the presidency or prime ministry.

Obama's running proves how far the US has come from the days of Jim Crow. We still have a long, long way to go before we can genuinely say that race is not a factor in society, but this demonstrates that we are on the right track.

The US is the only country in the world that would tolerate minorities in power? Tommyrot.

You get a lot of Europeans accusing Americans of arrogance and I'm normally the first to say, 'now that's not fair we're just as snooty towards them as we accuse them being brash towards the world' but the statement you made is exactly the kind of thing that would cause people to make the accusation.

Firstly, bear in mind that there are far more ethnic minorities in the US than Europe - whites make up some 68% of the US population, they make up 92%, 91%, 91% and 89% for Britain, Germany, France and Spain respectively and only around 5% of the total EU population is non-white. Accordingly you would expect a greater proportion of minorities to be in power in the states, however, just 5% of US senators are from ethnic minority groups while 3% of British MPs are, 2% of French National Assembly members are and 1.7% of MEPs are. These figures aren't great but proportionally non-whites are equally or better represented in the corridors of European power than they are across the pond.

'No European country could elect a minority into high office'? There have been several members of cabinet in Westminster from minority groups so that's incorrect. Furthermore, women (not a minority, granted, but an underrepresented group) have been at the highest office in Europe for decades. Not to the extent that they should be but at rather more impressive levels than the 0% of the USA. Two of the big three European economies have had female premiers.

Understand that I'm not championing European records on diversity because they aren't what they should be but but your supercilious assertions of minorities having no chance at power outside of North America is quite wrong. Racism in the states is, if anything, stronger than in Western Europe at least, and you'd have a hard time trying to claim your society is more tolerant than those over here.

NB. I couldn't find figures for Congress or the parliaments of Germany or Spain in the quick search I did.