Heckling in the Congress

[tk7432]

Joe Wilson Heckles President Obama in Health Care Speech for Congress

For those not in the know, during this week, President Obama held a primetime speech in Congress dealing about Health Care Reform. Over the past months, Health Care Reform in the US has been a hot topic and it has led to many voiced incidents in the media and in town hall meetings across the country. When President Obama addresses the topic that Health Care Reform will only be for US Citizens and will not be available for illegal immigrants, Republican Representative Joe Wilson of South Carolina yelled "You Lie" to amaze the entire US Congress and the millions of Americans who were watching this in primetime. What is your opinion of this? Does it show the immaturity in Representative Wilson's behalf, the issues in America with illegal immigration and health reform, or is this just one of millions of Americans who just feel tireless and mad about Health Reform?

I just think it is disrespectful for a US Representative to do so in behalf of the President but do see his personal opinion about the topic of illegal immigrants and Health Care.

[Fire2box]

I don't like that he shouted it when Obama was giving a major speech, though I can certainly understand his frustration. I think its very likely anyone will be able to get medical care under this plan. In the movie "Sicko" Moore shows a story of a US citizen who went to the UK, said guy tries to walk across Abbey road doing a handwalk. He falls and breaks a bone. His brother or friend then takes him to a hospital where if I recall correctly, they use a fake name to get him free medical care.

But anyways I hear stories of illegals getting care in hospital ER rooms already and sometimes they don't pay for it. Its just one of the many reasons why healthcare is/can be expensive.

[Chillhouse]

"Instead of addressing the problems with your plan and suggesting ways in which it can be improved for the betterment of everyone in this country, I'm just going to stand over here an yell as loud as I can in the hopes that you will be drowned out."

[bgi39jsjw0ggg]

Originally Posted by Fire2box

I don't like that he shouted it when Obama was giving a major speech, though I can certainly understand his frustration.

I can't. Health care reforms as proposed won't give illegal immigrants medical coverage, so why the hell is this guy getting his panties in a bunch over it?

Originally Posted by Fire2box

I think its very likely anyone will be able to get medical care under this plan. In the movie "Sicko" Moore shows a story of a US citizen who went to the UK, said guy tries to walk across Abbey road doing a handwalk. He falls and breaks a bone. His brother or friend then takes him to a hospital where if I recall correctly, they use a fake name to get him free medical care.

You do not recall correctly. He dislocated his shoulder, did not use a fake name, and it wasn't free. His pain meds came to around $10.

Originally Posted by Fire2box

But anyways I hear stories of illegals getting care in hospital ER rooms already and sometimes they don't pay for it. Its just one of the many reasons why healthcare is/can be expensive.

Illegals aren't the only ones getting care in hospital ERs without paying, and they aren't the majority, either. It *is* one of the contributing factors to why your health care is so expensive, but it's not even close to the top of the list of reasons, and neither is malpractice lawsuits. The real reason? There's an entire multi-billion dollar middle-man industry that rides on top of medical costs inflating the prices of EVERYTHING so they can get their cut. A full 30-40% of medical spending in the US goes to the insurance industry. The next highest medical costs in the US is "hospital care", and that includes everyone who receives care in a hospital from illegal immigrants to your grandmother.

[Fire2box]

Originally Posted by bgi39jsjw0ggg

Illegals aren't the only ones getting care in hospital ERs without paying, and they aren't the majority, either. It *is* one of the contributing factors to why your health care is so expensive, but it's not even close to the top of the list of reasons, and neither is malpractice lawsuits.

I never claimed it was the main reason why its expensive, so please quit trying to put words into my mouth. I specifically said its one of the many reasons why helathcare is/can be expensive. The main reason why I think it is expensive is R&D, companies pump a lot of money in R&D and its the only way we make progress. They need to not only pay off the R&D process but also make a profit too as is any companies goal.

[bgi39jsjw0ggg]

Originally Posted by Fire2box

I never claimed it was the main reason why its expensive, so please quit trying to put words into my mouth. I specifically said its one of the many reasons why helathcare is/can be expensive.

I never said you claimed that. I just said that it was nowhere near the top of the list, outlining why I find it so odd that people are complaining about it so much.

Originally Posted by Fire2box

The main reason why I think it is expensive is R&D, companies pump a lot of money in R&D and its the only way we make progress. They need to not only pay off the R&D process but also make a profit too as is any companies goal.

And you're wrong. As I said before, the biggest cost associated in health care spending in the US is medical insurance companies. Medical insurance companies take the top spot, followed by hospital care. Insurance companies do not pay for R&D.

[Fire2box]

Originally Posted by bgi39jsjw0ggg

And you're wrong. As I said before, the biggest cost associated in health care spending in the US is medical insurance companies. Medical insurance companies take the top spot, followed by hospital care. Insurance companies do not pay for R&D.

"The main reason why I think it is expensive is" I never expressed my opoion as fact. I don't work in the healthcare industry so there's really no way for me to know other then reports.

[bgi39jsjw0ggg]

Originally Posted by Fire2box

"The main reason why I think it is expensive is" I never expressed my opoion as fact.

And your opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong. I'll give you an example - it's my opinion that you have a talking orange penis growing out of your forehead.

Originally Posted by Fire2box

I don't work in the healthcare industry so there's really no way for me to know other then reports.

I don't work in the healthcare industry, either. I don't even live in your country. I rely on reports, just like you. According to your government, in 2007, insurance companies took in 3 times more money than R&D costs. It's also not R&D that's in crisis in your country, it's skyrocketing healthcare costs that people are having a harder time affording. It's been projected that without some drastic reform, medical insurance costs will continue to increase the way they have been in the past decade and a half. If the trend continues, 10 years from now, medical insurance costs will reach $25,000/year per family of 4. Right now, 62 percent of bankruptcies filed are for medical reasons, and of those cases, 80 percent of people had health insurance.

Your country needs health care reform badly, and complaining about red herrings like illegal immigrants and "socialism" are not helping. Tort reform, cracking down on illegal immigration, "letting the free market fix it" and tax cuts are not going to help solve the growing problem. This bill has been passed around for months - plenty of time for anyone interested to read it.

[NutFreeFruitcake]

To move this thread back towards the top of Joe Wilson, I'll address this:

Originally Posted by Fire2box

I don't like that he shouted it when Obama was giving a major speech, though I can certainly understand his frustration.

Originally Posted by bgi39jsjw0ggg

I can't. Health care reforms as proposed won't give illegal immigrants medical coverage, so why the hell is this guy getting his panties in a bunch over it?

I, being capable of analysis through empathy, can understand why he made an idiot of himself...

...it's just that the logical conclusion paints a very ugly picture of Representative Wilson and the state of the Republican Party.


Two points:

1. I believe 100% that Joe Wilson believed his "you lie" statement was valid - the fact that he gave a half-hearted apology for the outburst but not the statement shows this. There is an arguable viewpoint that, despite explicit wording that denies coverage to illegal immigrants, the package doesn't have any teeth to actually enforce this, and thus we will de facto cover illegal immigrants.

However, bgi39jsjw0ggg is right; the point is basically moot because it's a red herring that hardly affects the cost of health care. Republican complaints that these various red herring issues (and those like "death panels" that are patently false interpretations of ideas they've previously supported) make the whole idea of reform bad, are collectively a giant straw man.

Political rhetoric often defies logic, but the degree to which it's happening on the Republican side of this "debate" is way beyond normal.



2. The fact that Representative Wilson ever even considered heckling such a speech is totally beyond the norms of civility, and is the perfect symbol of the astroturf yelling matches during the recess. (The fact that he was factually wrong adds to the symbol's perfection). The fact that Wilson and the Republicans are willing to do this speaks volumes to the fact that they currently put their ideology and biases above reasonable, civil, fact-based debate.

A speech before a joint session of Congress is the highest form of speech by the most powerful man on the planet. It is generally only used for the State of the Union Address. Bush Jr. had one extra, a week and a half after 9/11. Clinton had one extra to kick off his attempt to reform healthcare. If there were ever any type of speech that should never under any circumstances be interrupted, this would be it.

It was wrong for conservatives to attempt to destroy discussion through yelling at town halls rather than discuss issues like intelligent, civilized adults. It was wrong for Joe Wilson to interrupt a key speech by the president through heckling rather than, with his party, present a legitimate alternative to the debate.

[Butterfly Mage]

Personally, I think presidents need a little more heckling to keep them honest. Some good "heckle" moments would have been:

-- Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
-- Heckle: "It must have been a pretty lousy blow job if you don't consider it sex!"

-- Bush: "I was praying and God told me to go to war."
-- Heckle: "God works for Halliburton? Who knew?!"