Server Upgrade discussion

[Error404]

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

Totally understandable... and very admirable.

However that would only work in an ideal society.

Individuals have been trading money for power since time began. It is the golden rule... "Whoever has the gold, makes the rules." and I think if we ever want this place to grow and flourish we are going to have to address this issue sooner or later... preferably sooner.

The other alternative to private individuals owning parts of the site is to whore the site out to advertisers... and charge people a yearly fee to become a special member so they don't see the ads. I am a member of a few places like that... and believe me when I say that having advertisements all over the pages and in the middle of the threads is not plesant at all... I think we would end up losing a number of members because of that.

So it is going to get to a point where we are going to have to do one or the other. We can let people like me buy in and give them some power... or we can sell out to advertisement... then Google, or Yahoo, or whomever we let advertise will have the power... b/c without their advertisements we would be right back at square one again.

Which would you rather see?

I think you're missing the point. We're part of a community that is not the social 'norm', so there's no reason we should collapse to the 'norm' of letting people BUY power. It only takes one spoiled brat in your idea to throw arround a little cash and all of a sudden, wham, massive problems.

What you need to take into account, whilst some of us are mature enough to handle a moderator position, there will be members who can afford the position but do not deserve it in any shape or form. I think we'd lose more members via this than we would gain.

All of a sudden, users without money are put lower in the 'food chain', even though they may contribute more information or time to the website. I just can't agree in any social or physical form with what you propose.

Just because a person is good enough to 'donate', it doesn't mean they are a GOOD person. Bill Gates donated a large amount of money to cancer research...Then went ahead and sued a family business for having the name Micro Software. or something like that. A FAMILY business, not even a possible rival. What I'm trying to say is. Power is inappropriate in the hands of some, and no amount of money should be able to earn it. If they want power and think they can handle it, they should take their money elsewhere and start their OWN site.

Moo and the administration team here work hard and earn their positions well, they have attained a site of excellent quality and the members are kept clean and intelligent. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who would quite bluntly give this site the finger if people were to get modship just because they threw a few dollars at the owner.

I don't think you, personally, would make a bad mod, but it's not YOU I'm concerned about...It's more those who would like nothing more than to see us taken down. A member with any experience in forum moderation could cause a mass amount of chaos with mod powers alone in under 10 minutes, and getting that experience is as easy as opening up a free forum account elsewhere experimenting with settings then going about with whatever they deem fit on the victim site.

Last thing we need is extremists paying their way into power only to destroy what we have from inside out.

Even if the damage was not permanent...The effect would still linger and stand out to those who have witnessed it.

One line, I'd say completely defines what I'm trying to say.

Hitler - Right idea, wrong people.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

Um... yeah... me. Not to brag or anything.

I'm beginning to see this place as a company. Moo cannot support the whole thing by himself... understandable... so he is looking for investors. Asking for "donations" of pocket change every now and then is one thing... but actively seeking a regularly scheduled source of funds is another.

Now in the business world when companies get people to invest they sell a certain percentage. If our budget for ADISC is $200/mo and I am paying $20/mo that means I am responcible for 10% of our operating funds. I simply want a way to ensure that my 10% investment would be used properly. $240 a year is a lot of money to just be able to look at a website. I want something more than access to a special (dead) forum and some words under my name. I don't think it is too much to ask that I be compensated for my contribution in the form of moderator status.

All the regulars here know me. I am an honest, responcible adult... and a pretty good guy all around. I'm not going to "abuse" my powers or do anything rediculous. If I did... they could always be revoked by Moo and I'm sure he could find $20/mo from someone else easily enough.

This being said... I don't think we would have to really worry about some "newbie" paying the $20/mo... becoming a Mod... and going crazy. First off... who is going to throw that kind of money away just for kicks? Secondly... even Mods are held accountable to the Admin. Their actions can be reversed if they are found to be unjust.

So... thus be my proposal. Take it how you will... I love this place... I don't mind supporting it in the least bit... I just want a little something in exchange. Sounds fair to me.

I've only got a few mintues, so you'll be spared a windy reply. I think your analogy is flawed. It's not a business with a product, it's a service and a non-profit one at that. What Moo has proposed thus far is not a capitalist model of investors who receive a return on investment, but really more like communism (from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs). I'm not a fan of communism as a government, but for small systems working for the common good, it can work.

Even in an investment model, you don't give away the farm just because someone waves cash in front of you. Some money comes at too dear a price. At least at this point in our development, I'd think any decisions on mods and such would be based out of a totality of contribution (not simply monetary), dedication, and temperment, which is where we still seem to be. To set a policy of mods for cash or even using it to set up a "short list" at this time would be a pretty drastic shift and one to which I'd rather not contribute (by which I mean my time and energy, not cash).

[Darkfinn]

I do respect your opinions... and believe me when I say I understand that this has the potential to cause some harm as well as do some good. However it's not like I see that many people just jumping at the chance to become a regular monthly supporter of the site.

Have you been on here on a busy weekend night when so many people are logged in that site crashes every hour or two? We obviously need things to stop this from happening... whatever is done. Otherwise as we continue to grow and get more members the problem is only going to snowball.

You act like me getting moderator status would be the end of the world. That it would somehow mar the essential goodness of the site here. As was pointed out earlier... Mods only enforce the rules... they don't make them. An abusive mod can be banned just as easily as any other member.

I am merely offering one possible solution... and I am doing this publicly so that interested parties to have a chance to respond. I would just really hate to see this place succumb to commercialism and advertising like the rest of the internet.

[Lukie]

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

Which would you rather see?

I'd rather see someone given power because they've proven themselves responsible enough for it. You are a good person Darkfinn, and I do like you as a member here, I could trust you to be responsible with power. But not everyone is like you and not everyone thinks like you. Giving power to the highest bidder only leaves us open to those who want to see us destroyed. Yes, I understand that there is no logical sense in spending a great deal of money just to ruin something, but in retrospect, we aren't a very logical society. There is always that one person who has to ruin it for everyone else.

Do I agree that there should be something for those who give regularly? Absolutely. But I also believe that this place is *not* a business, as you feel it is becoming. This place will always (hopefully) be that place where genuine people come for much needed help - for free - not to come here and partake in business activities. Just like any other forum, only admins should have any final say in the matter. I think Moo already does this admirably, since he runs (most) ideas through the community before making any changes. Would a group of people who have bought their way in really look into the best interests of the community? Yes, to the extent that the only people who would even consider buying in are those dedicated to the site. However, it does leave us open to those aforementioned few - the possibility of - someone coming in here and just ruining it for everyone. And that's what I feel insecure about.

I am on your side here Darkfinn, but that's not to say I agree entirely with what you believe is the best course of action. This is one of those issues where we should explore all alternatives before making any brash decisions.

[Charlie F]

"Whoever has the gold, makes the rules."
My point that mods don't make the rules, just enforce them, was made because you were implying that being a moderator would be gaining power.
Mods have some power, the power needed to do their jobs, but not the kind of power you seem to be on about.
Mods don't run the site, or make the rules. Being made a mod wouldn't give you a say in how things are run.

[Darkfinn]

Originally Posted by Lukie

This is one of those issues where we should explore all alternatives before making any brash decisions.

I couldn't have said that better myself.

We've got time... and a good thread here.

So... you've heard my idea... other possible solutions?

[Lukie]

I don't feel I donate enough, nor consistently enough that any suggestion I make would have any substance or weight.

Then again, I'm one for bonus features. Those little "fun" things you get on forums to make browsing a whole lot more interesting and easier. But regardless, I'd still only donate when I can. I'm pretty tight with my money.

[Darkfinn]

Um... one other thing I would like to point out.

About this place not being a business. Every website costs money... therefore it can be seen as a business venture in some form or fashion.

A business is: "An enterprise, commercial entity, or firm in either the private or public sector, concerned with providing products or services to satisfy customer requirements. ... It also includes the raising of funds for charitable or other non-profit purposes. "

ADISC is an entity in the private sector... that's a given.
ADISC provides a service: this forum & chat.
ADISC advertises its services to the public.
ADISC has customers: People who post here.
ADISC has rules and regulations, and representatives (Mods.) who enforce those rules.
ADISC has a budget: the $90-150/mo needed to keep the server and advertising running.

As of this moment the cash to keep this place in operation flows mostly out of Moo's pocket. I can't see this happening forever... especially as our costs keep increasing.

See it how you like. We do fit the mold.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

I couldn't have said that better myself.

We've got time... and a good thread here.

So... you've heard my idea... other possible solutions?

The first "solution" I'd propose is we wait and see if there's an actual problem before we spend a lot of time on remedies. As I've understood it, our downtime was due to transitions between one level of use and another. The site and service were up to snuff for the level of use we had, but not for what we got, presumably due to advertising. Raising the donation level to cover what Moo needs to keep it running seems like a reasonable enough approach at this time (assuming that bumping up site usage to this new level is really required or helpful, which is a different matter). When we fail to meet the set donation level, then I agree we've got a problem.

As an aside, my previous reply was not intended to address your potential fitness as a mod, just what I saw as problems with the proposal. I took the other responses in the same manner. In reference to your business model post, I think we're aware that charities can also be corporations. What I was getting at, and I suspect others as well, was that the site is not a "business" by character. It's more like a meeting hall with infrastructral expenses. You could certainly make a corporation to manage that meeting hall, but unless you stand outside the hall and entice people to pay to come in and use it, most people are not going to think of it as a "business". When Moo starts up with a registration fee, adds a store with T-shirts and such, then it's clearly a "business". Until then I think it's a different animal in a practical sense.

[Moo]

InconJenOnWheels:

The secret rep requirement might not be so secret forever.
I don't expect anyone to donate $20 a month. It would be great if they did... but that donation level is there so that if someone wants to donate $30 or so (which people have, in the past), they can consider it as an alternative.


Darkfinn

The server ADISC is hosted on was upgraded today. It now has 4 times the amount of ram and a 25% faster processor. Given that its previous problem was running out of RAM, rather than anything with the processor, we should be fine for quite awhile yet.

Even if our community grew to 8 times the size it is right now (and thus, we had to upgrade our server again)... with the increased numbers of people, we could probably still meet the cost via donations.

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

A business is: "An enterprise, commercial entity, or firm in either the private or public sector, concerned with providing products or services to satisfy customer requirements. ... It also includes the raising of funds for charitable or other non-profit purposes. "

We don't satisfy customer requirements.
We satisfy user requirements.
The differences is that customers pay for the services they use.
Our users don't pay anything for the services they use.

Our users have completely different motivations to the average 'customer'. They don't choose us because we're the cheapest, because we take VISA, or because we offer a 30-day money-back policy. They don't choose us because our forum comes with a warranty. They certainly don't choose us because we have a catchy ad phrase...
"ADISC... The Nice ABDL Community, Now With Extra Bovine"

People choose us for the one reason which truly matters when comparing free services... the quality of the service.