On the VIP system and trust

[DannyTheNinja]

A quick note: I'm taking my staff member hat off for this thread. This is in no way a representation of the collective thoughts of the ADISC management or staff; it's my personal opinion. The purple username means nothing for the purposes of this thread.

People have been wondering a lot about who is trustworthy on ADISC for a while now, and this is my shot at getting an answer on that together. Bear with me, this will be a little bit long.

ADISC has been around since 2003. When it started, it was comprised of about 21 people coming from another network out of dissatisfaction and the desire to create a better community. It blossomed into TBDL, which went on for give-or-take 5 years. We lost the site in a server crash, but Moo decided to make the best of the situation and expand the vision of TBDL into a community designed to reach out to a wider age range. ADISC was born, and grew beyond what anyone - even Moo himself - could have expected.

We had a lot of people come in. Some have stuck with us and become highly respected members. Others saw that ADISC didn't fit what they were looking for and left. Still others have been swiftly kicked out by our moderation team for trying to penetrate into a community where everyone should be trustworthy.

What defines trust? Trust is a relationship formed based on shared values, experiences, and communication. It is a bond between two or more people who are willing to share privileges between each other because they have a belief that nobody in the group will betray the others.

This is what the ADISC VIP system was formerly built on. Even though the system was based on reputation, we were able to use it to define who was and wasn't a VIP. People would receive rep due to those points above - shared values, experiences, and communication. You would get +rep for making a deeply philosophical post about the emotional or sexual aspects of diaper fetishism, or for being exceptionally mature in pointing out and helping to correct somebody's mistake. I got a rep recently based on the "cool factor" of this thread. While I think diaper stuffing is a very cool thing, does it reflect shared values, experiences, and/or communication, the elements that build trust? Maybe shared values or experiences, but both are arguably displayed pretty weakly in that post of mine, seeing as it was merely a how-to on making adult diapers work better. It was based on facts and instructions, not analysis and expression of beliefs.

It should be obvious that what I keep getting at is the topic in the back of my mind which is now being brought up front and center: the gallery image leak. A member of ours decided to betray the trust we expressed for him by exposing information we considered private to the public Internet. How did he gain this trust; what exactly was done that gave him the ability to betray us?

I think the problem with our entire VIP system is that we expect it to be built on trust, while we allow members to progress towards VIPdom based on being funny, smart, or cool. Guys and gals, this is what needs to change to bring the trustworthiness back to ADISC: give rep to people who you think deserve to be VIPs, based on their behavior, ideology, and openness. The point of being a VIP is that you have to prove yourself as a round character, a person with depth and breadth that only a minority of people express.

On the flip side, when should negative reputation be given? I think it's obvious here: if ADISC is supposed to be a community full of people who have more to them than the diapers on their crotches, we should go back to kicking out people who are not like this. If someone is clearly all about the diapers and here exclusively for diaper-related discussion, they're not the addition we want to ADISC. Building on the kettle of soup analogy that I love to allude to, these people bring broth to the kettle but with no spices or fresh veggies. We can handle one or two, but eventually all that broth makes the soup bland and uninteresting.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sick of being too nice. We accept anybody and feed them with rep for the dumbest (5pts) little (2) things (1), and before long they end up like redtails: betraying us because we trusted them for being witty or funny, not for showing appreciation for the core values that ADISC members have always had. It's called reputation for a reason. It's not something that people should spend their time pissing about. It should be an indicator of a person's character. I hope my post has adequately explained how we should go about doing this.

But wait. Watered down, doesn't this just mean "give rep for being just like everyone else on ADISC"? No. My new rep criteria, below, are designed to respect personal opinions and allow diversity while tightening the boundaries that people must stay within and encouraging people who really are trustworthy to go ahead and make statements that strengthen those three elements of trust. One might do this by sharing a personal experience, even if watered down a bit (communication); expressing something they believe that is shared among many people on ADISC, for example, being mature and modest in public (shared values); and participating in ADISC's more social activities, like IRC or blogs (experiences).

We still have our core values, guys. We just have to start holding other people to that standard. Based on the points here, I want to make a suggestion to change the criteria for giving rep:

• Give positive rep for:
  • Insight
  • Well-thought out arguments
  • Mature behavior or handling
  • Exemplifying involvement in the community
  • Exceptionally positive participation in another area like IRC or the wiki
• Give negative rep for:
  • Being derogatory, overly harsh, closed-minded
  • Phrases associated with chan sites, depending how often this behavior occurs
  • Showing disrespect to other members (do not give extra negative rep if being disrespectful to staff)
  • Baby talk, cliché questions, or immaturity
  • Deeker stories or perverted behavior
• Give neutral or no rep for:
  • Funny or witty posts
  • Cool ideas
  • Good (or bad!) stories
• Report a post for:
  • Consistent chan-site behavior
  • Disregard for rules or site policy
  • Encouragement of dangerous/illegal activity
  • Threats, extreme disrespect, porn, spam, viruses, etc.

This would work best if we made an announcement asking members to please consider these points when giving out rep, as well as changing the text on the "give rep" popup. Personally, I think our rep system can be fixed without making any technical changes at all. Since our rank system is entirely people-powered, do you guys think that asking the people to change their behavior can make an impact on our system? I do.

--Danny

[Charlie F]

I completely disagree.

Short and sweet:
You can't make a system for a trustworthy group. VIP should be what is has always been, a measure of who is a good contributor and who isn't.
I think trustworthiness should be removed from the idea of VIP by removing the VIP gallery and maybe other things.

[Butterfly Mage]

I agree with Charlie: Trust is up to the individual to determine. Trust has various levels as well (I trust you with $5. I trust you to borrow my car and bring it back. Those are two very different levels of trust). You can quante funny/useful/unfunny/stupid via the REP system, but you can't quantize trust.

[Darkfinn]

I'm with Charlie as well. VIP ≠ trust

Trust needs to be based off of experience... not the opinion of the masses.

VIP is simply a popularity contest.

[aj1983]

Almost everyday since I've came back here there is a thread complaining about the VIP or the Rep system. I still don't get the point of it other then as a popularity contest or to make others feel left out and excluded. Seems all rather silly and elitist to me .

...on the other hand, it is funny to watch people like 80+ rep points panic when they lose one or two, lol.

[Fire2box]

Originally Posted by Charlie F

VIP should be what is has always been, a measure of who is a good contributor and who isn't.

Boy that doesn't hurt at all. <_>

[Darkfinn]

Originally Posted by aj1983

Almost everyday since I've came back here there is a thread complaining about the VIP or the Rep system. I still don't get the point of it other then as a popularity contest or to make others feel left out and excluded. Seems all rather silly and elitist to me .

Precisely.

Which is why I am still for a complete elimination of the rep system. It causes more problems than it solves.

Does anyone really "look up to" VIPs because they are VIPs? Or is it because some of these people have a reputation and image in the AB/DL community as a whole?

[Fire2box]

Originally Posted by Darkfinn

Precisely.

Which is why I am still for a complete elimination of the rep system. It causes more problems than it solves.

Does anyone really "look up to" VIPs because they are VIPs? Or is it because some of these people have a reputation and image in the AB/DL community as a whole?

Frankly I don't care who's VIP since it has no effect on me. I don't base who I like/look up to as a good member on being VIP or not.

[2low]

Good point , there is no such real use for it other then make people try and cause more problems just to get some or ect

[Butterfly Mage]

I tend to view the REP system as a very effective anti-bullying measure. It's easy to attack someone from a position of anonymity. Having to possibility of receiving negative REP (and possible suspension/banning) serves to keep things civil.